tank crashing......

[gqjeff]

So lee have u had problems with zoos in your tank? This sparks a little interest.

 

[Troylee]

Yeah as a matter of fact I did all my zoos were melting a couple months ago it really ticked me off it was like a one week episode I forgot about that.... After that week it went away and the rest have been fine....

 

[Troylee]

Also before we get into some poisoning from that I lost about 8 polyps in all they were all small single polyp frags besides 2 of them had 2 or 3 polyps.... Where you taking this Jeff????

 

[gqjeff]

I have ran the pellets like 10-11 months. I took them offline yesterday just to see if I noticed any difference on my office tank. It's no big deal my skimmer and other methods can handle the no3/po4 so not worried about that. It's mostly zoos, lps and a few encrusting type montis. I have had on a few occasions some top notch zoos melt for no reason. Now that I have taken these offlne I am interested to see if this continues from time to time out of the blue. This would be frustrating as they look great and then bam out or nowhere I may lose a cool one. params r rock solid always and zero no3 and po4 at .02-.03 always with Hanna. I have been thinking of taking them offline for a while since this is an ulns type environment and lps, zoos do better with some nutrients anywAys. So time will tell this well be interesting.

 

[goody]

I brought up the zoas melting just to see if this could have been another sign of pellets or something else. I didn't realize it was so few polyps, and single polyp frags seem to melt more easily that multiple polyps. Not sure now that this might have anything to do with your sps issue.

If I knew how to do a poll, I would start a new thread to see what people think about the pellets: Great, good, bad, indifferent. Then maybe members could also state what brand of pellets they are using and for how long.

Since this thread, I am seriously considering taking my offline after 7 months despite my sps doing great. I would still like to hear answers to my other questions up above, regarding Lee's length of use and if anything else need to be done if taking these offline after using them before I make the decision.

 

[Troylee]

Some of those polyps were like my campfires I had them for 8 months it started as a single polyp and was doing great 2 months into use of the pellets they melted... It didn't even ring a bell then since I'm kind of new to zoos myself I figured it was just one of those things and it could of very well been.... For the record pellets fault or not "who knows at this point" I lost a few zoos and now sticks even lost a huge chalice colony for that matter while others showed signs of bleaching but recovered... Right now I can only say I haven't lost a piece in 4 days and the pellets have been off line 4 days... It's interesting I mean what ever is off or poisioning my tank is doing it in a extremely slow matter because I haven't lost a piece to rtn yet and that would show me I had a alk spike etc stn I think is from something totally different... I truly believe that rtn is only caused by swings in alk... I have dealt with that before this is my first occasion dealing with stn it's a whole different battle killing me softly....

 

[Alpha Aquaculture]

Lee could you have spilled your beer into the tank accidentally while top down viewing? lol.

I use wm ecobak and have been successful. I do water changes multiple times each week that are a lil smaller. I also feed a lot so not ulns. I try for increased nutrient export with increased nutrient import, keeping everything stable to natural seawater levels with regular water changes. This is how I try and accelerate my growth.

I read every word of this thread and it seems to me that its a problem with the lack of water changes causing a buildup of something. Maybe it was from the pellets leaching something, maybe some additive causing a toxic buildup, maybe a lack of a certain element, maybe a complexity between alk and the pellets. Either way it seems avoidable with regular water changes but I can respect you for being a no water change pioneer.

For those who have taken down their pellets after 4 weeks, they need time to get colonized so you have not given them a chance to perform. All they are is carbon for the bacteria to eat. The bacteria is the same as what's on your live rock. If the reactor its in is performing properly and the amount of pellets is not too much the concept seems pretty sound to me. I don't understand what reaction could have occurred inside the pellets to cause the crash. What is the science behind your claims? I use them and am curious to know. Seems more likely that your problem stemmed from a buildup of something. Something unexpected was not being diluted from a lack of water changes. Maybe the pellets have an impurity in them? Are they supposed to be pure carbon?

 

[Troylee]

Nope sorry I don't drink anymore... Sober for a few years mow lol... Never had a problem just got tired of the headaches... Ahahahahahah I don't know man Luke33 is a classic example vodka dosing and hasn't changed water in 7yrs... I normally change it once a year when I swap tanks everyone has saw I have a new tank every year...

 

[redtop03]

Dosing often times becomes stressful and harmful to the tank because we aren't adding the appropriate amounts and ratios. Often times we add too much. By doing a water change we are adding back those elements in natures perfect ratio. They don't get delepleted too fast so a small water change is enough to bring the levels back up and bring the ratios back to normal. Also the lower the nutrients in the tank the more the elements get stripped out of the water. One reason why you see the guys with ultra low nutrient systems always wanting to add things to the tank.

I agree,and the proportions should be correct in the new water but,we're using a man made salt,who's to say it's ratios are perfect if we can only accurately test for certain things,how do we know if it's worth the trouble....I just can't believe that only doing 10% water changes is gonna replace enough elements to make a difference......so far,the biggest benefit I've seen with water changes is to lower nutrients....

anybody new to aquariums,don't take what I say to heart,I'm still fairly new at this myself and just trying to understand...

thanks guys,for the input...sorry to hijack your thread Troy

 

[redtop03]

If a 10% water change helps with nitrate issues... how can you then dismiss the value of it?! Wouldn't it then help with other potential contaminants and trace element shortages?
I personally think we have a ways to go in our understanding of reef chemistry's more subtle relevance to the health of our organisms. Most of us don't test a wide array of parameters in our aquariums on a regular basis... so how do we know our tanks wouldn't benefit from water changes periodically? Even better, "routinely...
Fish can be raised in water with outrageous nitrate levels... but IMHO, this doesn't mean it's right or responsible to do so. Same is true with other compounds that may be present in a reef system.
All we are left with here are anecdotal conclusions about what may or may not have caused these conditions to occur (biopellets or otherwise)... and I have never heard of regular water changes causing such things.... and it's impossible to demonstrate how many such events have been prevented by them.
I don't mean to come off critical of your methods Troy... just of some of the rhetoric I have read in this thread. Glad you have appeared to have arrested the problem!

Just sayin'...

I'm not saying it isn't beneficial to do water changes,I'm saying I don't think that only 10% is enough to help with replenishing elements....I'm just trying to understand and get more input on the reasons to do water changes

 

[redtop03]

If nitrates were the only reason to do water changes then you wouldn't need to do them. I mean there are other ways to control nitrates.
What I am saying is that there is a lot more going on in the chemistry of the tank than we can even begin to understand. Toxins released by corals for one, soft corals, mushrooms, zoas, lps and yes I would bet even acroporas release some type of toxins. Who knows what other type of pollution is building up in our tank. Carbon, ozone, skimming, gfo, even carbon dosing, these can only remove a small percentage each. What does the most efficient skimmer remove? 25 percent of DOCs? So water changes are just another way of removing a percentage. To quote Martin Moe "the solution to pollution is dilution"


In addition to that though, it brings other chemicals back into balance, some we can test for and many we don't and may not even be aware they are needed. Magnesium is a perfect example. Using a salt mix with high Mg such as TMpro and doing 10 percent water changes weekly I only had to add Mg every six months or so to keep it at NSW levels. Borate is another example.

For me, doing a weekly water change makes more sense than trying to guess how much of a dozen different supplements I need to add. And cheaper than buying all those suppliments

this make more sense to me....this is the best explanation I've heard yet

thanks guys for all the input,and again,sorry to hijack your thread Troy

 

[Lazys Coral House]

Not sure if this was mentioned earlier but Instant Ocean has the highest amount of alkalinity of all salts. You said you did a water change to decrease your alk level but you likely increased it.

 

[Troylee]

It has a high level but not 10 at least I don't think anyways lol... I stopped topping off with kalk and in 3 days it dropped not sure if the wc helped it or not... All I know is 5days and no losses and no pellets!!!! Even a huge colony that was receding has stopped and in recovery mode now...

 

[Billgax]

Instant Ocean has the highest amount of alkalinity of all salts. You said you did a water change to decrease your alk level but you likely increased it.

I'm not so sure... Instant Ocean is made in huge batches, and I have noticed some inconsistencies in how it tests out over time... but never super high Alk. Where have you gleaned this information?

 

[Murfman]

FWIW, Troy, my alk has been in the 13+ range the last few months, even as high as 16.8. I was freaking out. I tested with multiple test kits and confirmed what the readings were. I even sent my Hanna alk checker back to have it tested as I didn't believe the high readings. I never lost a coral. I have slowly been reducing the amount my Ca reactor puts out, to bring it back in to "normal" readings. Back to the issue; the only time I have had issues, like you describe is when my alk was low and was "swinging". I have also read where too much GFO, too fast can cause problems. I only have a skimmer and turf algae scrubber to remove nitrates but, nitrates are needed, in small amounts. IDK if this helps or not, I hope it does.

 

[Troylee]

One question murff were you running pellets???? Any carbon source with a alk that high is disaster!!!!!

 

[Murfman]

Nope, no carbon sources. Been on vac for a week, need to test again. Last test was 12.8.

 

[Troylee]

I used to run my tank at 10 and it was happy and healthy but then I
Got into carbon dosing "vodka" and my latest and greatest adventure np pellets... Anything over 8 becomes a problem from my exp so I try to keep nsw levels which is 7 at 7 I didn't have any problems with burnt tips or swings or anything.... Easier to hold stable also...

 

[turbo21]

Here is the breakdown of what salt has what measurements. This is a sticky from RC not my work

Salt Product
Calcium
Alkalinity
Magnesium​

Aquatic Gardens​

430
8
1240​

Brightwell Neomarine​

370
11
1140​

CoraLife​

560
9
1380​

Crystal Sea Marinemix​

340
9
1050​

Crystal Sea Marinemix Bio-Assay​

340
9
1050​

D-D H2Ocean​

450
10
1380​

Instant Ocean​

400
11
1350​

Kent​

540
11
1200​

Marine Environment​

480
7.5
1450​

Oceanic​

580
8.5
1650​

OceanPure​

510
10
1320​

Red Sea​

400
8
1300​

Red Sea Coral Pro​

490
7
1300​

Reef Crystals​

490
13
1440​

Reefer's Best​

420
11
1200​

SeaChem Marine Salt​

500
10
1400​

SeaChem Reef Salt​

540
10
1450​

Tropic Marin​

375
10
1230​

Tropic Marin Pro Reef​

450
8.5
1380​

Tunze Reef Salt​

420
9.5
1350​

 

[Troylee]

wow 11!!!! i never tested it since i normally don't change my water.....fwiw i have used coralife since the beginning but my lfs didn't have any so i grabbed io.... interesting its that high!!!!!! i normally just top off with it here and there.....hmmmmm