The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

[Squamosa]

I think some people are missing the point on this thread!

Glenn is freely sharing his methodology with us in relation to the fact that you can keep an extremely successfully marine reef aquarium without doing water changes and by only controlling 12 elements. His method is actually very simple.

He has shared his calculator. However, some elements that need dosing, rely on concentrations known to Glenn, but, if you dig a little deeper, it reveals a wealth of knowledge about why the home reef will thrive with just these few elements, he even goes to the trouble to show you how to make your own ASW, how to dose dose Fe to lower PO4, carbon dose e.t.c. and it works very well.

With a little chemistry background you can make up the solutions without help but, you have to tweak (or as Glenn puts it) twist the concentrations for yourself.
For the rest out there you can buy the supplements ( maybe not in the USA) and just use the calculator to your hearts content.

As was stated before there are many paths to the same address, use whatever works for you!

Glenn and Randy are making people think a little bit deeper about their glass boxes, and that's a good thing (pun intended). :wink:

Cheers

 

[prsnlty]

I too am very intruiged with the DSR method by Glenn! It's fascinating to say the least so I am following along Thanks Glenn,
for giving us your time and expertease. I think you came up with something truly wonderful and your tank proves it!

 

[glennf]

I think some people are missing the point on this thread!

Glenn is freely sharing his methodology with us in relation to the fact that you can keep an extremely successfully marine reef aquarium without doing water changes and by only controlling 12 elements. His method is actually very simple.

He has shared his calculator. However, some elements that need dosing, rely on concentrations known to Glenn, but, if you dig a little deeper, it reveals a wealth of knowledge about why the home reef will thrive with just these few elements, he even goes to the trouble to show you how to make your own ASW, how to dose dose Fe to lower PO4, carbon dose e.t.c. and it works very well.

With a little chemistry background you can make up the solutions without help but, you have to tweak (or as Glenn puts it) twist the concentrations for yourself.
For the rest out there you can buy the supplements ( maybe not in the USA) and just use the calculator to your hearts content.

As was stated before there are many paths to the same address, use whatever works for you!

Glenn and Randy are making people think a little bit deeper about their glass boxes, and that's a good thing (pun intended). :wink:

Cheers

Right to the point..

 

[Cory]

Interesting. I like it.

Fwiw no water changes have been done successfully before. Consider inland aquatics, I think it's been 10 years.

Glenn have you tried a bag of nails or iron wool to reduce po4? I've thought about this. I like your iron citrate/sulphate phosphate removal tecknique. But why iron citrate? Wouldn't iron sulphate be good enough?

I'd be worried about raising the sulphate poption too high in relation to chloride eventually. Maybe there's iron chloride and iron sulphide mix to balance them out.

So basically your just testing 12 elements and adding them when they get low, or reducing them when they get too high? Pretty cool.

 

[glennf]

I recently decided to stop doing water changes (and all the planning/dosing that goes along with that) and had some very annoying arguments with friends because of it. People can be very stuck in their ways.

Glenn, Keep sharing and ignore the haters :smile:

Than you can imagine what i had to deal with in the past, when sharing this on forums and now globaly.
On RC they shut down my tank thread because i was "maybe" too enthousiastic and they interpreted it as advertising. But what the heck, it was my own tank thread and it was not a discussion thread.

But now i have learned a few things.
- I stop speaking when others love
to do so.
- I only speak when i have listeners and approval of the right people.
- I only reply on genuine questions (unless i genuinly missed then)
- i ignore flamers or people who are out for something, which i can spot a mile away.

Thanks for confirming that people are willing to listen and learn and not everbody is out there to criticise others.

I started this thread a while ago.
look at how many pages has gone by, still i have not got to the point to really start explaining.

R2R is a very innovative, user friendly and tolerant forum.
Most are not (friendly). They have very strict rules, which are fiercly efforced by a few people with their own agenda, which only benefit themselves one way or the other.

So you see even than it's a real challenge to get started.

 

[glennf]

Following this thread as well now. Thanks again for freely sharing all your acquired knowledge Glenn, it truly is what keeps this Hobby so captivating to me and likewise want to share my knowledge and or experience. I jumped in 'Neck Deep' after meeting and speaking with Martin Moe Jr back in the early 80's setting up my first 'Berlin style' system in March of '82. Like Paul B. ran most all my Marine systems on DIY reverse undergravel filter beds with great success.

Cheers, Todd

Thanks for acknowledging that there are people who are looking further than what they already know. This helps a lot for those who are sharing. I have seen so many brilliant people get beat down on forums because they were not joining the hurdle.

 

[glennf]

I too am very intruiged with the DSR method by Glenn! It's fascinating to say the least so I am following along Thanks Glenn,
for giving us your time and expertease. I think you came up with something truly wonderful and your tank proves it!

Thanks!
I will be moving on as soon as i have the spare time to so.
This is my passion and my hobby, but live is more than only five glass panels glued together with silicone kit.

 

[gettaReef]

Yeah, I totally agree with you there (regarding some other forums). I've seen many people banned and threads shut down due to other's opinions\agenda. I must say you've appeared to come up with a remarkably original and effective way of maintaining your reef; the results of your method shows itself when looking at your system and coral health/growth. One day I wish to be knowledgeable enough in chemistry and with the related elements in your method to incorporate the DSR method in my own system. Forgive me, as I'm sure you have covered this already, but what is your preferred way of testing parameters? Which kits do you advocate? Especially the more uncommon variables you are trying to control? And how often do you find yourself testing each parameter? Thank you

 

[glennf]

Interesting. I like it.

Fwiw no water changes have been done successfully before. Consider inland aquatics, I think it's been 10 years.
......... very Interesting, can you link me to the information , i like to compare notes and improve if possible.....

Glenn have you tried a bag of nails or iron wool to reduce po4? I've thought about this.
........ No, i have not. In the time before skimmers people were using it to lower PO4.
........I have used wirewool before and it worked, but i found the proces uncontrolable and it's like dropping a bom and wait for the result. Removing PO4 should be a managed process, because otherwise it will bounce up and down all the time

I like your iron citrate/sulphate phosphate removal tecknique. But why iron citrate? Wouldn't iron sulphate be good enough?
Iron suphate can work with manual dosing, but when making a solution it will precipitate in the dosing bottle.

I'd be worried about raising the sulphate poption too high in relation to chloride eventually. Maybe there's iron chloride and iron sulphide mix to balance them out.
......... Forget about the sulphate build up, the quantity iron you dose bounded to sulphate is much to low to affect you total SO4 amount present in Saltwater.

So basically your just testing 12 elements and adding them when they get low, or reducing them when they get too high? Pretty cool.

..... This i how I do it.

...... Nothing more or less..

Note:
People who don't believe it's possible, should do what they believe works for them.

I am not trying to convert people, i just show how it's being done in here.

 

[glennf]

Yeah, I totally agree with you there (regarding some other forums). I've seen many people banned and threads shut down due to other's opinions\agenda. I must say you've appeared to come up with a remarkably original and effective way of maintaining your reef; the results of your method shows itself when looking at your system and coral health/growth. One day I wish to be knowledgeable enough in chemistry and with the related elements in your method to incorporate the DSR method in my own system. Forgive me, as I'm sure you have covered this already, but what is your preferred way of testing parameters? Which kits do you advocate? Especially the more uncommon variables you are trying to control? And how often do you find yourself testing each parameter? Thank you

Thanks for you thoughts.

All you just mentioned, are being answered in my method.
I have taken away the burden of the need of chemical knowledge and poured it into a recipe that can be followed by anyone.
Beside that i have limited my "presence needed" to a minimum by designing a calculator which tell you all you need to do.

You can download my DSR Calculator i posted in here earlier.
It's an excelsheet with some build in intelligence.

 

[glennf]

This is a screenprint of the previous excel sheet ... there is a newer version posted in here, somewhere buried into this thread.

All info including the test i use are included in this screenprint of the DSR calculator.

 

[gettaReef]

Excellent! I knew you posted a calculator but am not sure exactly what it all entails. I'll go through, download it, and give it a try. Thanks

 

[glennf]

Excellent! I knew you posted a calculator but am not sure exactly what it all entails. I'll go through, download it, and give it a try. Thanks

When you're not sure ask. Don't don't go experimenting when you're a novice to reefing and chemicals.
That's why I made the products available through shops in the netherlands. Just to make the method more accessable to anybody and not only the more knowledgeable reefers. Because they also like a nice reef and i don't want to deprive them of the possibility to learn faster than i did.
It took me 10 year to get here.
Now is see reefers in their first year with flourishing sps in their reef.

 

[glennf]

This is adri's reef
A seawater novice in his first going to second year.

His tank thread:
http://www.zeewaterforum.info/forums/showthread.php?p=1163737

 

[gettaReef]

Wow very impressive

 

[Cory]

Note:
People who don't believe it's possible, should do what they believe works for them.

I am not trying to convert people, i just show how it's being done in here.

sure here is the link to a video of theIR store. They use an algal turf scrubber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsVEVUfVtcM

I dont think there is any reason to water change when your testing and supplementing. So i wouldnt worry about trolls. I dont do water changes. I only do water changes when something has gone wrong and I cant figure it out with my test kits or equipment. Or when to replace skimmate lost.

I may try dosing the iron supplement. I do dose iron gluconate for macroalgae growth, but very little. Can iron gluconate work the same to precipitate po4?

 

[glennf]

Wow very impressive

Reefing is not only water quality, but also right choice of lighting and good interpretation of the information you get.
Adri was satisfied with his result but i wasn't. I visited him the first time and right away I saw two discrepancies. Not enough/wrong lighting and to low on PO4.

After my first visit he worked on the problems and 2 months later i went there again. I was very pleased and took those pictures myself.

 

[glennf]

sure here is the link to a video of theIR store. They use an algal turf scrubber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsVEVUfVtcM

I dont think there is any reason to water change when your testing and supplementing. So i wouldnt worry about trolls. I dont do water changes. I only do water changes when something has gone wrong and I cant figure it out with my test kits or equipment. Or when to replace skimmate lost.

I may try dosing the iron supplement. I do dose iron gluconate for macroalgae growth, but very little. Can iron gluconate work the same to precipitate po4?

Thanks for the link i will be looking at it later when i have some spare time.
I know a few guys working with ATS and running whitout skimmer, but haven't seen a top notch SPS tank yet completely relying on it without water changes.
Please link me to it if you know one, i am willing to learn how they manage it.

All information i share are bases on own experience.
I aquired information i need, i have reasoned thinks i have seen, i have studied on things i did not know, i formulated a theory, tested my theory on my frag tank and finally i experimented live on my tank to prove my theory

Honestly I don't know if gluconate will do the same. I have never tried the gluconate .
To test this you need to try it, but i don't really know i you are willing to be the one to do so.
I can't guarantee the outcome would be the same.

I thinks the only way to go is when you know what to expect and compare it to that.
I don't know many people willing to take the risk trying a (unknown) substance on their tank without knowing in advanced what it can or can't do.
I for sure not, although it seems i experiment a lot, i know what i can expect in advanced, i only test for confirmation.

 

[Squamosa]

My tank-6 months no water change after adopting the DSR method.

I just wish the iPhone did the corals justice

 

[glennf]

My tank-6 months no water change after adopting the DSR method.

I just wish the iPhone did the corals justice

Aha... than you are the 2nd or 3th person that i know of who use it in australia.

Nice tank!
Although the picture is not optimal (to dark) and don't do your tank justice, I can see through that and see healthy corals and growth...
Deep contrasting colors and no wash out colors like many ULNS tanks, who targets only pink's and blue's.... it's just what you like better.

How did you came into contact with DSR?
Why did you decide to work with such a "crazy" concept.
Now you have worked with it for a while, can you tell what the difference is with before ?

Taking nice pictures is an art on itself , also a good DSLR camera helps a lot.

What lights are you using and what is your light/water ratio?