The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

[glennf]

OK, Randy always has to ask for a scientific evidence. It must be the scientist in him. There is also no scientific evidence that water changes will eliminate hair algae (and it won't) But many people seem to think it will. No evidence that reverse undergravel filters don't work. But I won't go into that. Scientific evidence about parasites is also wrong by the presence of posts on parasites. If after the 43 years that this hobby has been in the US, most posts are about parasites. No scientific evidence as to why things like majano's, aiptasia, flatworms or Godzilla Larvae come, then all of a sudden, disappear. Absolutely no evidence why some people like Paris Hilton, Myley Cyrus or Lindsey Lohan are famous. None at all. Or why I can't grow hair, or why we don't get copperband butterflies, purple tangs or Sweedish Supermodels for invasive creatures. Instead we get pigeons, lionfish, rats, snakehead fish and fire ants.
I add Lugols Iodine to my tank for no reason in particular and my reef is very old, does that mean that scientifically it makes a tank last longer? Or does that mean that I have no idea what I am talking about?

Some things are true paul, but most things can be explained easily, if there is a scientific approach that is the best way, but sometime when science can not be applied, because we don't know enough on the subject, real life experience is the only way to go forward.

so you might say where Randy's knowledge and paul's experience meets we get a perfect combination:xd:.

 

[glennf]

@paul I think this hobby IS largely about science myself - most of the equipment we use and chemicals we add has been introduced through a scientific approach - although the complexity of the hobby means that science is not always the last word. Still, each to their own and if you want to follow a less scientific approach, I don't think theres anything wrong with that, plus you very well might come up with something that initially confounds science, only later for science to catch up and realise and the benefit and (maybe) explain it. But for me (just me), since there is evidence that elevated iodine causes harm in to some organisms we like to keep, I am cautious about it, and appreciate the getting the scientific point of view.

i agree...

 

[glennf]

@Glenn - I was just wondering, regarding trying your DSR method, is this something that can be done just from the information you have published, or do you have proprietary recipes for your additions that can only be bought? I mean I have read your posts about people trying your method and messing it up, and hence you are keeping it private, but on the other hand you seem to have published your chemical additions from what I can see, so I am not sure what you are keeping private (apart from the 'twist' to the iron citrate).

You already list sodium bicarbonate, calcium chloride, mag chloride, mag sulphate, pot chloride, all the obvious ones which we already use. And regarding strontium, boron, iodide, phosphate and nitrate, there dosent seem to be much room for making up exotic formulations of these elements, so not much is left to the imagination. Your exact iron recipe is secret you have said, so theres one chemical that I assume we would need to buy from you or your appointed seller. But apart from the iron, what else can we not get from our normal suppliers (IE Sigma etc) if we want to try the DSR?

If we do need to buy chemicals from a certain supplier to try the DSR, is there a web site where we can see the prices?

Thanks, Pete

This was one of the reasons:
The second hijack attemp, which could could have sent a wrong messages and killed my method before I even got started. ( a RC thread which just went dead, google on the topic name)
that person had no chemical knowledge nor extended reefing experience whatever, he learned everything about the method from me and i only told him a fraction of what i knew at that moment.

 

[TheClark]

@Glenn - I was just wondering, regarding trying your DSR method, is this something that can be done just from the information you have published, or do you have proprietary recipes for your additions that can only be bought? I mean I have read your posts about people trying your method and messing it up, and hence you are keeping it private, but on the other hand you seem to have published your chemical additions from what I can see, so I am not sure what you are keeping private (apart from the 'twist' to the iron citrate).

You already list sodium bicarbonate, calcium chloride, mag chloride, mag sulphate, pot chloride, all the obvious ones which we already use. And regarding strontium, boron, iodide, phosphate and nitrate, there dosent seem to be much room for making up exotic formulations of these elements, so not much is left to the imagination. Your exact iron recipe is secret you have said, so theres one chemical that I assume we would need to buy from you or your appointed seller. But apart from the iron, what else can we not get from our normal suppliers (IE Sigma etc) if we want to try the DSR?

If we do need to buy chemicals from a certain supplier to try the DSR, is there a web site where we can see the prices?

Thanks, Pete

I guess that is my question too. I love the knowledge sharing, the spreadsheet, test and adjust makes so much sense. The iron is a unique approach, I love the idea. The photographs seem to point to great success. So here i am interested in the method. What are the next steps?

One could guess what chemicals to use, but it is more interesting to me to see what glennf uses rather than re-inventing the wheel. If the chemical recipes cannot be shared, could a website be shared that sells the chemicals? Perhaps they are priced reasonable and I don't need to wonder about how to DIY them?

 

[glennf]

@Glenn - I was just wondering, regarding trying your DSR method, is this something that can be done just from the information you have published, or do you have proprietary recipes for your additions that can only be bought? I mean I have read your posts about people trying your method and messing it up, and hence you are keeping it private, but on the other hand you seem to have published your chemical additions from what I can see, so I am not sure what you are keeping private (apart from the 'twist' to the iron citrate).

You already list sodium bicarbonate, calcium chloride, mag chloride, mag sulphate, pot chloride, all the obvious ones which we already use. And regarding strontium, boron, iodide, phosphate and nitrate, there dosent seem to be much room for making up exotic formulations of these elements, so not much is left to the imagination. Your exact iron recipe is secret you have said, so theres one chemical that I assume we would need to buy from you or your appointed seller. But apart from the iron, what else can we not get from our normal suppliers (IE Sigma etc) if we want to try the DSR?

If we do need to buy chemicals from a certain supplier to try the DSR, is there a web site where we can see the prices?

Thanks, Pete

i made i available through the shops in holland to serve the users with the right quality.
Alk,Ca,Mg, are generic which you can get locally at you LFS. it's just what you guys call 2 or 3 part i believe.
The other stuffs are more rare to get hold of, liquid formula's i keep for myself. it's my way of keeping track of the method to be implemented the right way. i have seen people messing it up, while being sure they could tweak the method their way. But they did not fully understand the way i use it. IMO you can only tweak, if you fully understand how the original is suppose to be working.

i don't know if this link is allowed so correct me if i am crossing a line
just go to Seaflower
they are the only one with an english supported site

 

[UK_Pete]

OK great thanks for that, its good to see what the pricing is, and it all seems pretty reasonable to me price wise.

So alk, calcium and magnesium Cl & SO4 are generic, what we all have on the shelf at the moment already. Iron is definitely special and needs to be bought, and its affordable so thats great. Regarding the rest, its worth asking you a bit more detail, as I already have a lot of these.

Salt: pure salt, since shipping on this item from Holland will cost far more than high purity locally, is it OK to source our own?
KCl: Once again its heavy and far cheaper locally, and many of us already have it. Is the branded product essential?
Sr & B - not sure about other people but I have SrCl2 & borax in analytical grade already. Can I use these?
Iodine I would need to buy.
Phosphate: I have food grade phosphoric acid and AR sodium phosphate.
Nitrate: I have AR nitric acid which I can create sodium nitrate with at 'tank grade' with the balling bicarb product.

Iron, Carbon, Iodine and amino acid I would need to buy from seaflower, but that would be a much lower barrier to entry than the whole lot. I realise that its up to me to decide but would you advise I can go ahead with this or would you say I need all the branded products as above? What with the added price of having to buy a few new tests kits (although I have some of them already), I want to see how expensive it would be to give this a go for a few months.

Thanks, Pete

 

[MrDJeep123]

DSR NaCl+ : Pure Salt for adjustment of the Salinity (1x 5000gr)
DSR KH+ (KH uplift) : Natrium bicarbonate (1x 1000gr)
DSR Ca+ (Ca uplift) : Calcium chloride (1x 1000gr)
DSR Mg+ (Mg uplift) : Magnesium Chloride (2x 1000gr)
DSR MgSO4 (Mg + Sulfaat uplift) Magnesium Sulfate (2x 1000gr)
DSR K+ (Kalium uplift) : Kalium Chloride promotes colors Pink/Purple (1x 500gr)
DSR Sr+ (Strontium) : Calcareous skeleton structure stimulator (1x 1000ml)
DSR B+ (Boron) : for growth of sps coralsn (1x 1000ml)
DSR I+ (Iodide) : promotes colors Blue/Purple (1x 250ml)
DSR PO4+ (Phosphate) : additives, usage when corals are bleeching (1x 500ml)
DSR NO3+ (Nitrate) : additives, usage with tissue loss in corals (1x 500ml)
DSR Fe+ (iron) : binds phosphate and will be removed by skimmer (1x 500ml)
DSR Carbon v/s: removes Nitrate by feeding 'good' bacteria and skimmer (1x 1000ml)
DSR Amino V/S : stimulates growth of Zoanthids (1x 500ml)

Why would you add phosphates and nitrate additives back into the system, only to remove them? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[P3FE]

Experienced reefer that found a way to keep a beautiful tank and help others to do so without the traditional reefing methods we know in the US.

 

[P3FE]

Awesome discussion and the anticipation and knowledge was great, I almost believed on the "free sharing of knowledge for the good of the hobby" and then the link was posted and the money making part of the business took over. Sad!

 

[glennf]

Awesome discussion and the anticipation and knowledge was great, I almost believed on the "free sharing of knowledge for the good of the hobby" and then the link was posted and the money making part of the business took over. Sad!

It's about thinking in solutions , not in problems.
I have said it from the beginning on, just not to mislead anyone.
I expain how it work, but i won't reveal the formula's. The reasons are given and i am not in a hurry. I have to give and require nothing back. I have taken distance from selling anything myself.
I only do what people ask and i am not forcing anything. What more can i do ?

I am also aware people will always criticise me for anything i do, because i can not please every person on this planet.

This has been and will always be an issue on any forum i have been on. Because it's a hot/controversial subject it also actracts people for many reasons, including people with their own agenda.

How do i handle that ? ........ NOT, because people are entitled to their oppinion and all will be sorted out themselves.

 

[glennf]

OK great thanks for that, its good to see what the pricing is, and it all seems pretty reasonable to me price wise.

So alk, calcium and magnesium Cl & SO4 are generic, what we all have on the shelf at the moment already. Iron is definitely special and needs to be bought, and its affordable so thats great. Regarding the rest, its worth asking you a bit more detail, as I already have a lot of these.

Salt: pure salt, since shipping on this item from Holland will cost far more than high purity locally, is it OK to source our own?
KCl: Once again its heavy and far cheaper locally, and many of us already have it. Is the branded product essential?
Sr & B - not sure about other people but I have SrCl2 & borax in analytical grade already. Can I use these?
Iodine I would need to buy.
Phosphate: I have food grade phosphoric acid and AR sodium phosphate.
Nitrate: I have AR nitric acid which I can create sodium nitrate with at 'tank grade' with the balling bicarb product.

Iron, Carbon, Iodine and amino acid I would need to buy from seaflower, but that would be a much lower barrier to entry than the whole lot. I realise that its up to me to decide but would you advise I can go ahead with this or would you say I need all the branded products as above? What with the added price of having to buy a few new tests kits (although I have some of them already), I want to see how expensive it would be to give this a go for a few months.

Thanks, Pete

Give the last posting i won"t go into the "purchase aspect" anymore. one posting is enough and people should be doing their readings properly.
When you have the skills, source and means to select the right raw products you should probably do it.
I don't want to spend all my time sourcing for the right products. I have done it once for myself and it took me a while to find the right supplier for the right quality and price. Once a guy linked me to a italian site with the question "are these good enough".... all products were desciped in italian. I don't have time nor do i enjoy doing that. By channeling it through the lfs i free up my spare time.


I put great effort in sending the message through in my postings, to avoid useless discussion, please put some effort t to read before drawing premature conclusion.

To communicate a way how to do things have many hurdles..... this whole thread is already a mild example of how it always goes about when people have something to share.

You might ask why bother.....
I say someone have to do it, to move forward with the hobby.

 

[glennf]

Why would you add phosphates and nitrate additives back into the system, only to remove them? That doesn't make sense to me.

It only makes sens if you need it.

Every tank goes through phases of development.
- Maturing
- Stabilisation
- Growth and thriving.

To be succesfull you need to know where you stand.

Most people go through the first two stages and won't need additions like PO4 an NO3.

But when you reach the third level (or even before that) you need it, because the coral gowth will drain the resources.
This is where many people stumble over and think it's controversial. I use it to keep my tank in the shape it is now, so to me it is a necessity.

Besides that i believe balancing the PO4 and NO3 value contributes to stabilty in your system.

To remove NO3 surplus with carbon dosing you sometimes need to add PO4 and it also works the other way around but less effective.
Removing PO4 is more effective with GFO or in my case with iron dosing.

 

[mcarroll]

many believe it serves a purpose, others don't.
it's just a gut feeling and that is sometimes the only thing we have to go on.
it's quite easy to administer and keep track off, so why not, if we think we can improve our result and get nicer tanks.
i have just made a tool to make it easy for anybody to do so, without the danger of overdosing.

Limits of Science
There is more to it than science knows, to be sure...George Bernard Shaw has some fun observations in this regard. But science makes an awfully nice framework to stick to since it's so easy to get carried away with feelings.

Iodine Testing
Not that many people talk about iodine testing at all, but I've never seen anyone declare that iodine was easy to test for. (Nor have I read anything suggesting that it should be.)

I spent time trying to test and maintain iodine levels using both Salifert and Seachem iodine test kits. (Think they were the only two commonly available iodine test kit brands available at the time...looks like Red Sea has joined.) I tested used tank water before and after dosing as well as a couple brands of freshly made sea salt (aged and mixed-on-the-spot) on dozens of separate occasions. Seachem was the only kit that gave satisfactory results at all, but it was a bear to use the test: One reagent needs to be created from scratch for every round of testing and only lasts a few minutes. Also, even with attention to these issues results were inconsistent, requiring a co-test of their reference solution (which Seachem was very generous with when I ran out multiple times) to verify that reagents were working properly/fresh. I really never could determine if iodine levels were that much in flux or if there was something inconsistent in the test process...it's a relatively complicated test, but I'm usually pretty good at these things. (I guess I suspected it was the iodine levels.) YMMV, but IMO not worth it!

Especially not worth it considering that - both with and without regular water changes - I've noticed no difference in my corals in the years since then. Perhaps the testing chemistry has gotten better in hobby-grade kits, but from my meager understanding this is just the nature of assessing iodine levels...there are many forms it can take (it's called "reactive iodine" for a reason!), many of which don't show up in these tests, plus seawater has chemicals which can interfere with some iodine tests.

Why Is My Tank OK Without Supplmental Iodine?
Maybe there's another explanation, but I'm guessing (with evidence) that the food stream into my tank - primarily NLS flakes and ESV phytoplankton - must deliver some iodine and the system itself (including organisms) must be pretty conservative with the iodine that's organically bound.

Just $0.02.

-Matt

P.S. Since these links are less-frowned upon lately, here's a good, short read (and a less-short one) on iodine lest anyone think I'm making up facts about iodine.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

hi all.... nice to meet you.. i am new member

Welcome to Reef 2 Reef.

 

[UK_Pete]

Thanks Glenn, as regards the comment by P3 please remember that everyone has a different opinion and there are some of us who don't think that, and are just pleased to see an affordable technique which we can try ourselves, with some substantiation in the form of photos of tanks run this way. No single technique is for everyone and I do understand people who want to only add chemicals / additions etc that they know exactly whats in them, and thats their right. For me I do like to know what I am putting in my tank although I think its impossible to know exactly, the reason is as Randy says, most trace elements in salt mixes are just impurities in the source chemicals. So when we do water changes, for instance, we are putting random mixes of chemicals in to some degree. One companies calcium chloride might have different trace elements in it than another company etc, and no one would know why this brand performs better than the other brand.

So while it must be true that you can only really vouch for the brand of chemicals that you supply, you are being far more open than most, and specifying the intended chemical addition and the reason and quantity, which is not something we get (at least in the UK) much. Most reef supplements here are black box 'pour 10 ml in a week' with no explanation of the concentration or blend of chemicals in the supplement, and I don't like that myself. I appreciate that there is a commercial angle to your DSR method, and a few of the chemicals seem to be proprietary, but I am OK with that myself, and there are probably other people like that here too. If I can use some of the chemicals from my normal suppliers and only get the more special ones from seaflower, that works fine for me.

It sounds to me like all you are doing is making approved versions of the chemicals mixed to known concentrations available to those who want a simple way to source them, and for someone who didn't have any of the chemicals, I think the seaflower starter packs would be far cheaper way to start than ordering from a chemical company. Additionally there are 3 special blend products, which absolutely can not be substituted, the iron, carbon and aminos, but they are very reasonably priced. But from what I can gather, the Sr, B, I, PO4 and NO3 are OK to source either from seaflower or from alternative sources, although you have no way of making sure people mix them up to the right concentrations so for those not comfortable doing this, they would be advised to go with the seaflower branded stuff.

Is that an accurate overview? If so I think I am in, and will give this a try once I have my other (CO2 / pH) problems sorted out. Did you say also that you prefer people to PM you before starting this?

 

[Squamosa]

It sounds to me like all you are doing is making approved versions of the chemicals mixed to known concentrations available to those who want a simple way to source them, and for someone who didn't have any of the chemicals, I think the seaflower starter packs would be far cheaper way to start than ordering from a chemical company. Additionally there are 3 special blend products, which absolutely can not be substituted, the iron, carbon and aminos, but they are very reasonably priced. But from what I can gather, the Sr, B, I, PO4 and NO3 are OK to source either from seaflower or from alternative sources, although you have no way of making sure people mix them up to the right concentrations so for those not comfortable doing this, they would be advised to go with the seaflower branded stuff.

You are right Pete!

As an example, I source my NaCl from a chemical supplier supplier here in Australia (Sigma) and it is ANALAR grade with a full MSDS , so I know what the purity is. Twenty kilograms of it costs the same as a 22.5 kg bucket of Red Sea salt (the blue lid) but I still have to add bicarbonate, calcium, both magnesiums, strontium, etc. when I make up some water lost to skimming or suchlike. So yes it becomes very expensive if you source lab grade reagents, but you know what the purities and impurities are!

Glenn has done that for the lay man, probably with a lot of sweat and tears in the background.

Happy reefing,
Tony

 

[MrDJeep123]

It only makes sens if you need it.

Every tank goes through phases of development.
- Maturing
- Stabilisation
- Growth and thriving.

To be succesfull you need to know where you stand.

Most people go through the first two stages and won't need additions like PO4 an NO3.

But when you reach the third level (or even before that) you need it, because the coral gowth will drain the resources.
This is where many people stumble over and think it's controversial. I use it to keep my tank in the shape it is now, so to me it is a necessity.

Besides that i believe balancing the PO4 and NO3 value contributes to stabilty in your system.

To remove NO3 surplus with carbon dosing you sometimes need to add PO4 and it also works the other way around but less effective.
Removing PO4 is more effective with GFO or in my case with iron dosing.

It is in my opinion that you are creating a complicated and unnecessary mess with all the additions of additives to make up for the additives you are adding and removing. Does it work, perhaps. I get the whole ultimate control over parameters, but this is a serious investment on top of the serious investment we've already made. It's a double whammy!
I'm not against new methodologies, however.

 

[glennf]

hi all.... nice to meet you.. i am new member

Welcome and enjoy

 

[Paul B]

I'm not against new methodologies, however.

I am not either. I usually go for the simplest, cheapest method that works. I make my determination if something works if the thing is living quite a while, not just a couple of years. I dose iodine only because I have a big bottle of it and I use ozone. If I ever run out of the stuff, I doubt I will replace it, but many years ago I had my water tested and it read iodine as .002 and I think the sea measures 0.04. I have had banded shrimp live for 7 years and spawn the entire time and my hermit crab pair died at 12 years old. Is iodine dosing good or bad? I have no idea. A reef tank has to many variables as to what you should dose and it is determined by water changes, animals kept, Ozone or skimming, water source, amount of algae, lighting, type of salt used, substrate, etc. If your fish or corals are not lasting for many years, you are doing something wrong.

 

[Shep]

So I have been reading this method and the Triton method but I guess I do not know enough to tell the difference. Could you explain what difference between your DSR method and the Triton method is? They both seem to do away with water changes and use special addititves and testing.