The myth that LED lights last forever

[BeanAnimal]

Well then. I didn't include units because some americans get angry seeing metric. But you allowed it

Comfortable warm means ~45°C for me. Touching such a heatsink won't feel uncomfortable for anyone I hope. Anything hotter than 50°C though is actually too hot already for aluminum heatsinks,

I simply don't agree with that generization, as explained above, whatever units you are comfortable with and whatever is warm touching for you or not.

because silica diodes need to transfer heat through several bottlenecks. First from silica die to copper circuitboard. Then thermal paste/glue. Then finally aluminum heatsink. That's why a diode on a 60°C heatsink could already reach toasty 100°C in worst cases.

I don't wish to argue specific thermal stacks - the point was (is) that touching a heatsink does not tell you anything about the actual thermal management of the devices attached to it. The mass of the heatsink, surface area, volume, fin orientation, passive or active cooling, etc. all determine how fast heat moves away from the target device. In that context I disagree(d) with your generation that a heatsink "too hot to comfortably touch" is too hot for the devices it is protecting.

IN the same fashion (opposite to your statement) a "cool to touch" heatsink does not necessarily mean that the device is being properly thermally managed either. Again, mass, area volume... etc. The heat may not move fast enough from the target device, but the heatsink overall may still be cool to touch.

Manufacturer datasheets don't really recommend any temperature. They just guarantee a certain minimal lifespan for a max temperature

No need to split hairs here, parse/use the data however you wish - we know the operating range and associated lifespan, lumen performance, etc. based on operating temperature.

LED diodes do. The 105°C from your Datasheet is measured directly from the silica. Not copper heatspreader nor heatsink. They are much colder. The Silica in lot of lights is probably reaching over 130°C which destroys them prematurely, while their heatsinks are just hot to the touch.

I clearly stated junction temperature, not heatsink or heat spreader. To that end, the document that I linked to, and most other OEMs offer thermal measurement recommendations to measure overall die temperature.

At any rate, more back and forth is tilting at windmills. I don't agree with your generalization and explained why, with data and am going to move on from the conversation.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I cook m-rare in sous vide 128f. As an American, I can honestly say we measure things with comparisons quite often.

Sous Vide 123 for the win.

 

[Dburr1014]

As a side note.. not too long ago lights like this had a very poor track record as to longevity. Not the diodes but all the electronics behind them that gets cooked by the heat. I'd consider them disposable until proven otherwise.

Pretend its a mh bulb.. sorry couldn't resist.

There is a fan in this bulb. Not sure if the one you talk about had a fan also.

 

[alton]

As a side note.. not too long ago lights like this had a very poor track record as to longevity. Not the diodes but all the electronics behind them that gets cooked by the heat. I'd consider them disposable until proven otherwise.

Pretend its a mh bulb.. sorry couldn't resist.

Hey if I can get 16 to 24 months out of it like my old MH lamps for $40, I am good. Better than $500 for a XR15
The picture is a commercial 65K lamp I received back in 2015 which I used for 4 to 5 years on another tank. I still have it and it still works.

 

[Dburr1014]

Hey if I can get 16 to 24 months out of it like my old MH lamps for $40, I am good. Better than $500 for a XR15
The picture is a commercial 65K lamp I received back in 2015 which I used for 4 to 5 years on another tank. I still have it and it still works.

I have had my bulb since April.
6 months so far so good.

 

[Tavero]

I simply don't agree with that generization, as explained above, whatever units you are comfortable with and whatever is warm touching for you or not.


I don't wish to argue specific thermal stacks - the point was (is) that touching a heatsink does not tell you anything about the actual thermal management of the devices attached to it. The mass of the heatsink, surface area, volume, fin orientation, passive or active cooling, etc. all determine how fast heat moves away from the target device. In that context I disagree(d) with your generation that a heatsink "too hot to comfortably touch" is too hot for the devices it is protecting.

IN the same fashion (opposite to your statement) a "cool to touch" heatsink does not necessarily mean that the device is being properly thermally managed either. Again, mass, area volume... etc. The heat may not move fast enough from the target device, but the heatsink overall may still be cool to touch.



No need to split hairs here, parse/use the data however you wish - we know the operating range and associated lifespan, lumen performance, etc. based on operating temperature.


I clearly stated junction temperature, not heatsink or heat spreader. To that end, the document that I linked to, and most other OEMs offer thermal measurement recommendations to measure overall die temperature.

At any rate, more back and forth is tilting at windmills. I don't agree with your generalization and explained why, with data and am going to move on from the conversation.

While you were correct in your post, the difference between heatsink temperature and internal temperature wasn't instantly obvious (for you and me it was, but not for the casual reader). That's why I wanted to leave a clarification, not because I wanted to start an argument or similar.
Thing is, as long as a user doesn't own a expensive flir camera he will never know the internal temperature. That's why I was using generalisations like "comfortable to touch". Sure it's not scientific but better than nothing. (And obviously better than measuring the heatsink at 80°C and thinking it's fine because the "led light" is under 105°C)

 

[Tavero]

My preferred American measurement

Edit: my old hot tub had a safety cut off at 113f, I cook m-rare in sous vide 128f. As an American, I can honestly say we measure things with comparisons quite often.

Thanks,
I knew bananas and football fields were used as official size units, washing machines and boeings as weight units, but I wasn't sure about temperature.

 

[MnFish1]

Sous Vide 123 for the win.

Did you sear it? If so, have you compared searing under MH vs LED? Edit - (This is a joke BTW)

 

[BeanAnimal]

Did you sear it? If so, have you compared searing under MH vs LED? Edit - (This is a joke BTW)

Yes - That was seared on the grill I think...

However, I have a BlueStar range top with some pretty massive burners and a commercial range hood....
So typically turn the hood up, heat a cast iron on full blast with a dab of clarified butter until it reaches the smoke point and then sear for 15 seconds on each side as the flames dance and smoke billows from the pan.

I buy steaks from various places, but lately Wild Fork and typically opt for aged. prime NY strip. Ribeyes (my fav is the Delmonico) don't Souse Vide as well due to the fat getting a bit weird and not rendering well during the short sear.

Anyway...

 

[Shon]

Did you sear it? If so, have you compared searing under MH vs LED? Edit - (This is a joke BTW)

I'm curious about the controllable flamethrower

new flamethrower module

Because holding the ol' pew pew trigger down for about a minute per side is too tedious.

 

[Acroguy]

Yea as far as I remember it had a marginal victory.
To be honest current high cri LEDs should be equivalent but speculation.

My Google-fu seems to be malfunctioning as to finding the paper.
Anyways, history.

what happened to plasma lighting?

So I know 3-4 years ago there was a lot of talk and excitement around plasma lighting technology, since then it has kind of died out so I am wondering does anyone know what exactly happened and why this technology wasn't pursued?

www.reef2reef.com

Huh was in that thread .

Coral growth under Light Emitting Diode and Light Emitting Plasma: a cross-family comparison

With the advent of new technology, aquarists are able to customize light spectra with great flexibility. However, our knowledge of how light spectrum affects aquarium life, including corals, is still limited. Here, we show the effects of two light spectra, emitted by Light Emitting Diode (LED)...

reefs.com

Study had issues.
Anyways..


Actually the discussion is a poster child on the difficulties of comparing one light to another

I am running a Gavita 270 plasma light over my grow out tank suplemented by ati t5 bulbs.
Acropora love it and growth is even bezter than under t5’s. It is 5000-6500 k light so need to be suplemented with blue light. Its basically a mini sun over your tank.Spectrum is the best it can be.270 W out of a tic tac sized bulb.
If you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I am running a Gavita 270 plasma light over my grow out tank suplemented by ati t5 bulbs.
Acropora love it and growth is even bezter than under t5’s. It is 5000-6500 k light so need to be suplemented with blue light. Its basically a mini sun over your tank.Spectrum is the best it can be.270 W out of a tic tac sized bulb.
If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Go any pics of this setup?

 

[SashimiTurtle]

I am running a Gavita 270 plasma light over my grow out tank suplemented by ati t5 bulbs.
Acropora love it and growth is even bezter than under t5’s. It is 5000-6500 k light so need to be suplemented with blue light. Its basically a mini sun over your tank.Spectrum is the best it can be.270 W out of a tic tac sized bulb.
If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Go any pics of this setup?

+1, we need pics

 

[oreo54]

I am running a Gavita 270 plasma light over my grow out tank suplemented by ati t5 bulbs.
Acropora love it and growth is even bezter than under t5’s. It is 5000-6500 k light so need to be suplemented with blue light. Its basically a mini sun over your tank.Spectrum is the best it can be.270 W out of a tic tac sized bulb.
If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Sorry since it doesn't include IR it can't be a "full spectrum" light..

Gavita 270e Sup 01, 849,00 €

270 W powerful Plasma Light also suitable for damp environments very high quality light (full spectrum) long output stability over time absence of infrared

www.coralsands.de

Actually just joking.
and it has some near IR, just not the HID med and far IR

 

[Derrick0580]

This has been covered ad nauseam.

LED fixtures last until next gen come out; much like cell phones.

And companies like apple get sued regularly for stuff like this. Someone smarter than their engineers always figure out what apple has done to make their older models just magically turn to junk. I feel like if a reefing company did this and someone figured it out they wouldn’t survive the onslaught of lawsuits. And trust me, just this site alone there are plenty of people smarter than these morons running the light companies, just look at mobius’ track record! They can’t even get their app to keep correct time and date.

 

[Acroguy]

Go any pics of this setup?

Will take pics tomorrow.

 

[Acroguy]

Sorry since it doesn't include IR it can't be a "full spectrum" light..

Gavita 270e Sup 01, 849,00 €

270 W powerful Plasma Light also suitable for damp environments very high quality light (full spectrum) long output stability over time absence of infrared

www.coralsands.de

Actually just joking.
and it has some near IR, just not the HID med and far IR

It is the closest to natural sunlight of every available light on the market.

 

[oreo54]

And companies like apple get sued regularly for stuff like this. Someone smarter than their engineers always figure out what apple has done to make their older models just magically turn to junk. I feel like if a reefing company did this and someone figured it out they wouldn’t survive the onslaught of lawsuits. And trust me, just this site alone there are plenty of people smarter than these morons running the light companies, just look at mobius’ track record! They can’t even get their app to keep correct time and date.

I just dumped my Pixel 2 for a pixel 4..
Perfectly useable phone.. though no longer supported ..
Don't blame manuf.....

 

[oreo54]

It is the closest to natural sunlight of every available light on the market.

Which sunlight?

Sunlight at 1m? Ect..
-Anyways a bit of a comparison to a high CRI COB led . About $14.
Grey shaded area is "daylight" Yea the lep is slightly better (richer in 420 and lower ) but I believe it is a bit on the "warm" side.
Got a K temp on it?

to be fair there isn't a single sw light light designed to be like "daylight" except for like the 6500k Iwasaki and related.

People, in general, don't "approve" of daylight.. Not my opinion, just is.
It is actually easier to design a lep matching led array than the spiky MH/t5's..

 

[Enchanted Reefs]

Which sunlight?

Sunlight at 1m? Ect..
-Anyways a bit of a comparison to a high CRI COB led . About $14.
Grey shaded area is "daylight" Yea the lep is slightly better (richer in 420 and lower ) but I believe it is a bit on the "warm" side.
Got a K temp on it?

to be fair there isn't a single sw light light designed to be like "daylight" except for like the 6500k Iwasaki and related.

People, in general, don't "approve" of daylight.. Not my opinion, just is.
It is actually easier to design a lep matching led array than the spiky MH/t5's..

I believe the greens and reds promote more algae growth so it helps with headaches down the line