The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[EliMelly]

I'm in the "no quarantine" camp as I personally found that, well - it's only effective if you're 100% diligent - which almost never happens. I'm coming up on just over a year and a half of not quarantining any of my fish (July 2021). I try to select the healthiest and most active fish from my LFS, provide a freshwater dip for flukes and acclimate them properly.

I've gone from roughly 16 fish post-velvet (where quarantine didn't work) to a current stock of 50 today. All healthy and disease free. I haven't had a chance to read through the entire 142 pages (working on it!), but I do run a UV to keep things in-check along with an ozone system. And I don't do water changes.

So is there no point in buying ore quarantined fish? Where do you buy your fish from?

 

[th365thli]

So is there no point in buying ore quarantined fish? Where do you buy your fish from?

IMO, even if you're running ich management, there is still some value in buying quarantined fish. Ich isn't the only disease out there, velvet is much more sinister and deadly. You could go for a 7 day conditioned fish as Dr Reef does. By then the fish should've shown signs of velvet. But if you want be completely safe you would go for the 30 day quarantined.

 

[zoomonster]

I may treat new fish but no I don't quarantine and have pretty good luck and pretty much leave it up to natural selection.

Like someone else said I change 40g several times a year in my 9yo 200g. Right now, going through a rare occurrence where I am changing 40g once a week for 5 weeks as part of my current remodel.

Funny story about tangs and disease... so probably about 9 years ago I got a purple tang and a yellow bellied hippo. Both were quite healthy, and the Purple was a holy tank terror and eventually drove the hippo to suicide. I cursed that dang fish but could not catch him. The tang of course started getting bad erosion/scarring around the face from lateral line. Then one day he got white spots and got really sick to the point of having lost all color and was completely white (skin color) and I was sure I was going to have to pull him out dead. There still was little or no chance of getting him out alive for treatment. So, I let nature take its course and he's here today. Funny thing is he's fatter and healthier than ever 9 years later and the thing I thought could not happen did. All his facial scarring almost completely healed and you would barely know he had it. His behavior also changed and while a little nutty winging around the tank he gets along and doesn't bother anyone including the powder blue I got a little later on.

 

[areefer01]

I wonder if those in the no QT or observation camp own a dog or a cat and never take it to a vet. Or if their display had a Holacanthus clarionensis in it if they would do the same.

Hmm...I wonder.

 

[MnFish1]

So is there no point in buying ore quarantined fish? Where do you buy your fish from?

I think this is incorrect - there is a point in buying quarantined fish - you just need to make sure that the place you're buying them from do a proper quarantine. These will be more expensive than the average fish, etc.

 

[areefer01]

you just need to make sure that the place you're buying them from do a proper quarantine.

This is so very true. And unless the price is obscene (obvious gouging withstanding) it should be accepted. I personally believe they are offering a great service for their herculean effort (risk, effort, and time).

 

[MnFish1]

Sometimes fish ignore earthworms but they are fantastic food with all sorts of gut bacteria from the soil. They just never saw them so are not used to them. I used to feed earthworms to my anemones who loved them.

You can freeze them then chop them up.

I am also overstocked with 40 fish. But they mostly stay small, the few larger ones, I give away if I can catch them.

Earthworms are fine - unless their soil has contained various chemicals in the past - metals, etc. I would prefer cultured earthworms - that are grown in clean media. I do not think there is any evidence that there is a benefit to feeding a fish from a reef the bacteria in an earthworm and potentially a detriment (which would be a rare event). I have tried them - fish do not tend to eat them - unless they are mixed with other stuff and frozen.

 

[MnFish1]

I may treat new fish but no I don't quarantine and have pretty good luck and pretty much leave it up to natural selection.

Like someone else said I change 40g several times a year in my 9yo 200g. Right now, going through a rare occurrence where I am changing 40g once a week for 5 weeks as part of my current remodel.

Funny story about tangs and disease... so probably about 9 years ago I got a purple tang and a yellow bellied hippo. Both were quite healthy, and the Purple was a holy tank terror and eventually drove the hippo to suicide. I cursed that dang fish but could not catch him. The tang of course started getting bad erosion/scarring around the face from lateral line. Then one day he got white spots and got really sick to the point of having lost all color and was completely white (skin color) and I was sure I was going to have to pull him out dead. There still was little or no chance of getting him out alive for treatment. So, I let nature take its course and he's here today. Funny thing is he's fatter and healthier than ever 9 years later and the thing I thought could not happen did. All his facial scarring almost completely healed and you would barely know he had it. His behavior also changed and while a little nutty winging around the tank he gets along and doesn't bother anyone including the powder blue I got a little later on.

Just curious would you use "Natural selection" on a $1000 fish? I would not personally - so I'm not criticizing you - just curious.

 

[zoomonster]

This is so very true. And unless the price is obscene (obvious gouging withstanding) it should be accepted. I personally believe they are offering a great service for their herculean effort (risk, effort, and time).

Sorry I don't buy that bill of goods. Assuming they are actually doing what they claim you are paying, sometimes obscenely, for that risk, effort and time. I doubt most of them are any different than a fish store that has had a fish in low salinity copper soup for weeks and says hey look at this great fish I've had for weeks, healthy and eating. I mean even LiveAquaria claims they quarantine all their fish for days or weeks depending on species. Not buying that either. As most of us know copper mostly just suppresses disease which may explode after you get it home. Of course, some claim to also do multiple rounds of antibiotics which is a questionable process in of itself. One case I have looked at was Chloroquine Phosphate, Copper, Prazipro, Metrodendazole and Metronidazole. I mean seriously?

 

[areefer01]

Sorry I don't buy that bill of goods. Assuming they are actually doing what they claim you are paying, sometimes obscenely, for that risk, effort and time. I doubt most of them are any different than a fish store that has had a fish in low salinity copper soup for weeks and says hey look at this great fish I've had for weeks, healthy and eating. I mean even LiveAquaria claims they quarantine all their fish for days or weeks depending on species. Not buying that either. As most of us know copper mostly just suppresses disease which may explode after you get it home. Of course, some claim to also do multiple rounds of antibiotics which is a questionable process in of itself. One case I have looked at was Chloroquine Phosphate, Copper, Prazipro, Metrodendazole and Metronidazole. I mean seriously?

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

[zoomonster]

Just curious would you use "Natural selection" on a $1000 fish? I would not personally - so I'm not criticizing you - just curious.

First off, I would not buy a $1000 fish. As a matter of principle, I just refuse to pay more than a couple hundred dollars for a fish and that's too much. Just more industry greed like the purple tang I paid $120 for that's now 3-4 times that much for anything bigger than a 50 cent piece. WWC is approaching $700 for a larger one. That $1000 fish could just as well die, sooner rather than later, from liver damage from all the crap people are dosing them with.

 

[blaxsun]

So is there no point in buying ore quarantined fish? Where do you buy your fish from?

It's six of one and a half dozen of the other, ie: YMMV. Myself, I get all my fish from my LFS - so I have a chance to check them over, make sure they're eating, not stressed, getting along with other fish, etc.

 

[flashsmith]

I know this to be fact. I'm an avid salt angler and over the last couple of years there has been study after study and the results are always the same. Fish I chase redfish, bonefish,snook,trout. Over 80% of all fish tested contained opiates various pain killer meds,high blood pressure medications,anti depressants,ED meds etc... In their blood stream and tissue samples. Not to mention microplastics. I stopped keeping fish over a decade ago because when you filet them the meat is full of worms. I would imagine the fish we put into our systems are no different. Just as many fish die in quarantine as do that are dropped straight into your system. Just find a good source. I feel if you buy from an actual salt shop you'll be fine but if you buy from pet shops with a little of everything you're asking for trouble.

 

[i cant think]

This is so very true. And unless the price is obscene (obvious gouging withstanding) it should be accepted. I personally believe they are offering a great service for their herculean effort (risk, effort, and time).

Honestly, I personally disagree. QT tends to kill fish more than it does help them - If done improperly it will leave fish with burns (Even if done properly but the wrong fish is thrown into copper it will be left with burns). Just think of it this way;
If you were a brand new fish out from the wild, and just gone through 2-3 weeks of travel at the minimum, brought away from any food source. Then finally you get to a fish shop or home and get thrown into a completely sterile tank with almost no food source. Then put through several rounds of treatment for a disease you may not even have, risking potential long term affects like copper damage.
Would you prefer that over being thrown right into a reef where you have the food source and the fish can remain feeding and thrive?

It’s unlikely you’d prefer that over the other option. Maybe in your aesthetic purposes you’d prefer it however natural selection is always going to happen even after you QT and you’ll find a fish is still going to get ich or some form of parasite in a never ending cycle. The reason for this is;
You’ve only quarantined your fish. If you want to be totally disease free why not quarantine your inverts, coral, sand and even rock? That’s the only way anyone will be able to have a tank that’s 100% free of disease but nobody does it so why do we quarantine fish?

 

[Paul B]

Does anyone on here have an old fully quarantined or medicated tank where all the fish spend like a month or two in isolation or some sort of medication?

How old are those tanks? I really don't know but I never found one. All the old, healthy tanks that I know about are not quarantined or medicated.

I think if you wanted to quarantine in a normally decorated tank where the fish have tight places to hide and there is growth on the rocks they would be fine. IMO it is not needed and counter productive but should be fine.

Of course to me, I feel diseases and parasites like the fish evolved to live in do better if kept natural and go right into a natural tank

I can tell right away if fish on these forums will be affected with parasites by looking at the tank for a second. No growth on the rocks and not proper hiding places. Thats the way the majority of tanks are. To clean and improper food. As I keep saying, if you keep feeding foods with no gut bacteria, your fish will eventually become sick.

You can't get around that as that is where immunity comes from and immunity is what fish have in the sea. They can live on medications if that is what you are going for but it is a job keeping fish like that and they are not healthy no matter what you read or how long you have them.

Just my opinion of course but I find "communicable" diseases on fish ridiculous.

There is no such thing in a natural tank or in the sea.

 

[Subsea]

Paul,
I recently saw the lengthy video that Humblefish made with you this past summer. Very well done. Have you posted it here?

 

[Paul B]

I wonder if those in the no QT or observation camp own a dog or a cat and never take it to a vet.

How many people here have a "wild" dog like a Dingo that they took from the plains of Africa or Australia? Raise your hand.....Higher.

There are still a few places where wild dogs live but I doubt anyone has a "wild" Toy poodle, Pomeranian or Shih-tzu. (I assume, "Wild" Toy Poodles eat Kibbles)

But if you took a wild Dingo from Australia and removed it from it's pack, then put it in a bare enclosure by itself, medicate it and feed it baked food, I bet it would try to eat you.

Or take a Robin off it's nest and put it in a bird cage and feed it baked goods like flakes are and see how happy it seems and how long that poor animal lives.

You can't compare 'wild" animals like fish to domesticated animals and assume you as a Human are giving it a better life than it had in nature.

Paul,
I recently saw the lengthy video that Humblefish made with you this past summer. Very well done. Have you posted it here?

No, I haven't. That would be up to Humblefish. But if people don't believe me with a 51 year old very healthy and spawning, no disease tank, all the video's in the world won't change people's mind and it's not my job to do that. We can still run our tanks any way we want.

I think my interview with "Reef Bum" is on here someplace.

 

[Paul B]

Just curious would you use "Natural selection" on a $1000 fish?

I don't have any thousand dollar fish. If I wanted one I would have one but there is no fish that I can think of that I want that I don't have except for a Janss Pipefish which I can't find any more. But they are about $25.00.

If I wanted my fish to live long enough for it to only die from old age, I would just acclimate it for about 20 minutes, then put it in my tank where I will enjoy it for a long number of years.

This year I gave away a large Koran Angelfish fish (Which I posted) and bought about 8 smaller fish. Today I am going to try to catch a fan tail filefish that grew to large and bring it back to the store where I got it. Then maybe I will get 4 or 5 smaller fish. I now have about 40 fish including a few "ich Magnet" tangs.

Yes, I am very "lucky"

 

[i cant think]

I don't have any thousand dollar fish. If I wanted one I would have one but there is no fish that I can think of that I want that I don't have except for a Janss Pipefish which I can't find any more. But they are about $25.00.

If I wanted my fish to live long enough for it to only die from old age, I would just acclimate it for about 20 minutes, then put it in my tank where I will enjoy it for a long number of years.

This year I gave away a large Koran Angelfish fish (Which I posted) and bought about 8 smaller fish. Today I am going to try to catch a fan tail filefish that grew to large and bring it back to the store where I got it. Then maybe I will get 4 or 5 smaller fish. I now have about 40 fish including a few "ich Magnet" tangs.

Yes, I am very "lucky"

I wouldn’t even say it’s luck what you’ve got!
You simply do the best you can to keep your fish thriving. Over here QT is minimal if ever used and yet I believe @atoll has a rather old reef and a few other reefers over here have reefs that go into the 5-10 year range and older that are thriving without QT.
I also follow your technique and it’s proven to be more useful than QT ever will be.

 

[atoll]

I wouldn’t even say it’s luck what you’ve got!
You simply do the best you can to keep your fish thriving. Over here QT is minimal if ever used and yet I believe @atoll has a rather old reef and a few other reefers over here have reefs that go into the 5-10 year range and older that are thriving without QT.
I also follow your technique and it’s proven to be more useful than QT ever will be.

It's all a matter how you interpret old. I have moved house a few times abd never took a tank with fish and corals with me to the new house. However, I do have live rock that is around 20 years old in my current system which has been running for just 3 years.
I had a Reefer 250 here for 18months and transferred all the stock to my current D-D1500. My longest running tank was about 12 years before I moved house and sold all of it on.