When did the BUYER become responsible for shipping delays?
- Thread starter UMALUM
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I said nothing about consumer protection law. There is no law that I am aware of that supports what you say. I haven't seen any law quoted (though - as I said earlier - posts sometimes appear and disappear - so I might have missed something. I'm not a lawyer - But - I've already said - IF AVAILABLE - the seller should have probably bought insurance to prevent these issues (and as a businessperson - should have probably just refunded/replaced the coral) - since I'm not aware of any shipper that allows a seller to insure living animals. The difference (the important difference) - and I'm only saying this to help others buying shipped living goods. The shipping companies do not care about delays. They don't care about fish, coral, snails or anything else. It is kind of an odd situation - where neither the buyer nor the seller have done anything wrong.
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Agree - what if you are selling a 15K peppermint angel - and it dies because it was delivered to an incorrect addressed - or delayed for some reason. Should the seller just replace it? refund the money? I mean I'm asking an honest question - not trying to play devils advocate. The cost of breeding/selling Bergia is extremely different than a fish (though I have had questions about Berghia prices previously.
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No offense to the wife breeding Berghia. But - the cost to do so is minuscule as compared to a tank - and IMHO - completely irrevalant. This is a multi thousand dollar investment. Let's pretend you buy a lot of Berghia we're talking about a retail price of 2-300 dollars. the actual cost of those berghia is minimal to the seller. (perhaps this seller sells for a cheaper price - in which case the point makes sense)
JNalley
Valuable Member
There are a string of laws and case precedents that support what I said. Ethically, the seller is bankrupt; legally, the seller is on the hook for this mishap. Again, you can go down the rabbit hole of law that I did to arrive at the same conclusion, but a brief overview is this:
Breach of Contract:
The Contract created was for a live coral in return for money. The terms of the contract were set forth by the advertisement, which states "UPS Overnight Shipping," "Standard DOA Policy," which will be honored if "Pics within 1 hour of arrival."
In this case, the customer did not receive a live item, regardless of whose fault it is, the contract formed was around the animal in an alive state. Any modification to this needs to be expressly written as per contract law.
Also: By even offering a live or perishable product, the seller is under stricter obligations to ensure live arrival.
Express warranty:
By creating a picture of the item, under the UCC this constitutes an express warranty, that the item will arrive in this condition, or in the case of furniture, in a condition in which the buyer can reasonably get the item into this condition.
Lastly Language Ambiguity, as has been pointed out so many times already, falls on the person who initially created the contract, in this case the seller. Any ambiguous language works in the buyers favor, not the sellers. There is a ton of case precedent surrounding this that isn't very hard to look up. The Seller did not clearly state the terms of the DOA policy and left that determination up to the Buyer, the Buyers idea of a "Standard DOA Policy" with "Pics within one hour" clearly leads the buyer to thinking "I am covered for Dead On Arrival as long as I furnish Pics to the seller within an hour of arrival."
Again man, I am not going to go back and look up various UCC and FTC statutes so that I can paste them here to you, you can do that if you want. The law is clearly on the side of the buyer in this particular instance.
JNalley
Valuable Member
The answer to the above depends on the terms of DOA set forth by the seller. If no DOA disclaimer is present, then yes, the seller would be legally obligated to replace the 15K Peppermint Angel, even if it was delivered to an incorrect address or delayed for some reason. As a seller, you have a legal obligation to clearly lay out the terms of your own contract with your buyers; not doing so reverts back to the letter of the law, which states that a buyer will receive the item in the condition that was advertised.
reef_ranch
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I think this horse is dead.
DIYreefer
Well-Known Member
That's a very different situation. Honestly, if I'm selling a $15k fish, I'm probably delivering it in person and there's zero chance I'm using they typical shipping methods that we all normally use when shipping corals and fish for normal people. Lol.
Cargo freight via one of the airlines would likely be the way to go when shipping such an expensive fish. It would cost a couple hundred bucks but that's marginal given the price tag of the fish.
I am awake now, and having a weekend to waste so I rejoin this discussion.
If the seller has a "standard" DOA policy, unless the seller specified ahead of time that they are not responsible for shipping mishaps, the seller should be responsible. I would imagine that if I want to ship a 15,000 delicate fish, I would take appropriate precaution to insure that this does not happen, or else specified ahead to time that I am not responsible.
I know of two examples of shipping expensive animals in the last few years.
1. LA send a 30,000 Peppermint Angel to a buyer cross country to Califorinia. They have an employee carrier the fish and deliver to the buyer.
2. The second example, was when a buyer in Austin Texas buy RED Gigantea, a unicorn of a Gigantea, the only one know to be living at this time in the world, he hopped on to the plane and flew to CA to pick up his anemone and carry it back. I would think this animal is in the 5 figures range.
DOA policy as I under stand it is deliver the animal ALIVE to the buyer with specified exception(s). The price of the animal is immaterial. The seller either either take responsibility for it or else specified, AHEAD OF TIME, the situations when he decline to be responsible. If I am buying, or shipping a $30,000 (or $15,000) fish I will know who is responsible at which time before I cut the check or arrange for the animal to be pick up from my control.
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I can offer you nothing of substance, ergo, I offer you useless ramblings that we can both agree that UF is the worst.
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Agree - However - in your example - lets say you said - ok - peppermint angel - for sale - 15K, will ship overnight UPS - who would be responsible - and - lets say its not you - its an unethical seller - who knew the fish had a problem - would you not think the buyer has the responsibility in this case to say - wait a second - I want a personalized delievery - or something like 'I would like an additional guarantee if there is a shipping delay'. I'm talking the principal here (which is what the OP asked for ) - the example is not the discussion - but an example. In this case the buyer agreed to the terms.I am awake now, and having a weekend to waste so I rejoin this discussion.
If the seller has a "standard" DOA policy, unless the seller specified ahead of time that they are not responsible for shipping mishaps, the seller should be responsible. I would imagine that if I want to ship a 15,000 delicate fish, I would take appropriate precaution to insure that this does not happen, or else specified ahead to time that I am not responsible.
I know of two examples of shipping expensive animals in the last few years.
1. LA send a 30,000 Peppermint Angel to a buyer cross country to Califorinia. They have an employee carrier the fish and deliver to the buyer.
2. The second example, was when a buyer in Austin Texas buy RED Gigantea, a unicorn of a Gigantea, the only one know to be living at this time in the world, he hopped on to the plane and flew to CA to pick up his anemone and carry it back. I would think this animal is in the 5 figures range.
DOA policy as I under stand it is deliver the animal ALIVE to the buyer with specified exception(s). The price of the animal is immaterial. The seller either either take responsibility for it or else specified, AHEAD OF TIME, the situations when he decline to be responsible. If I am buying, or shipping a $30,000 (or $15,000) fish I will know who is responsible at which time before I cut the check or arrange for the animal to be pick up from my control.
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I'm gonna make a point - one persons 15,000 is another persons $500 or $1000. If I was a buyer - of a high priced item - I would iron down the agreement/guarantee. I mean - some personal accountability - if a person gives a guarantee (like a 'standard DOA' - its very clear thats an extremely vague answer - I would have (as the buyer - asked for a clarification)
Outlaw Corals
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That would be the last time I did business with that seller, it’s not my responsibility is the wrong answer, I don’t know how you paid
but maybe you could do a charge back or something that’s what I would do I have done that plenty of times in the past, the seller should’ve never said that he should’ve worked with you, you really have to know who you’re buying from. There is only three vendors I deal with anymore, I know everything I get has been quarantined and treated and in the best health and I never have to worry if something goes wrong during shipping
but maybe you could do a charge back or something that’s what I would do I have done that plenty of times in the past, the seller should’ve never said that he should’ve worked with you, you really have to know who you’re buying from. There is only three vendors I deal with anymore, I know everything I get has been quarantined and treated and in the best health and I never have to worry if something goes wrong during shipping
As long as the term of sale agree on ahead of time, it is NOT unethical. Like in my second example, you can always insure the delivery by arrange to shipping or go pick up yourself, or not agree to buy. Why should the seller automatically assume the risk unless he seem the risk acceptable? I am sure if he has a DOA guarantee, more people would buy. It is just business.
Standard DOA guarantee is for the animal to be alive on arrival or replace/refund. Seller can add criteria where this would or would not honor. In this case the seller did not do this. Only specified for proof of death on arrival within 1 hrs and still in the bag or else it would not be honor. After the fact, seller refuse responsibility, which is wrong for sure.
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Agree - Curious - how many times have you had fish/coral delayed for more than a day or 2? And what was the result - (and again agree what the seller was reported to say in the text is not good customer service). my opinion a couple of hours ago was that a good seller would send a replacement - or refund the money. And the return shipping (to me) would be paid by the seller
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I will with all due respect disagree. The seller has an ambiguous DOA 'guarantee'. The buyer did not ask for a clarification. As said before - were I the seller - I would refund the money. But - the buyer from another person also needs to do due diligence. One reason I no longer will ever order fish online. There was one company from which I ordered close to 1000$ in coral. It appears that the company ordered the coral from a wholesaler that was then directly shipped from them (ocean) to me. The coral was all dead, smelling, and beyond any hope of replacement (it was also delayed from the shipper - who was happy to point out that the shipping delay was due to a storm - and thus not his issue). Now - a good seller/shipper would look at the weather and say - hey - I think it would be better for me to ship to you on day xxx.. (I don't know the reason for the delay in this case). They also very friendly - offered a refund or re-shipment which was never received
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