Where have all the captive-bred Mandarins gone?
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OP
OP
I had a mandarin that I loved...whether it was captive-bred or not, I don't know, but after a few months of buying pods he started eating bloodworms and nls small fish pellets (shocking, I know! - as for mysis, his mouth was still too small). He was fat and healthy and I'm fairly sure I was out of pods pretty quickly, lol, but he just kept growing nicely...I only lost him because of a nasty tank crash that killed all three of my finbabies T.T
That said, I am admittedly a very heavy feeder.
I currently have a rescued scooter that started VERY thin. She attacked the ova I gave her the very first night, and though I've been short of pod cash lately and have not seen one on the glass for months, she appears to be thriving on a mixture of nls small fish, nutramar ova, and frozen rotifers. I don't feed brine shrimp if I can help it and she doesn't appear interested in mysis.
She has definitely fattened up and is active
I want to try keeping a mandarin again too once I get my upgrade together, and I'm saddened to hear that ORA no longer breeds them. I wonder if anyone else on the forums does? Failing that, I'll go back to where I got my first beautiful boy.
I have watched some youtube videos and it appears that they pick up on frozens faster if there's another dragonet in the tank that already regularly eats it.
Edit: I will not purchase a mandarin until I have saved up for a ton of pods. The safety net shall be in place!!!! Then, if it's not going for the frozens or if it starts losing condition on my usual regimen, I can get on it right away.
Great information and relatable story! I think that it's so important to share these types of success stories with other hobbyists...Not just so that others try to keep fish that are challenging- thats a pretty superficial suggestion...Rather, because it shows others just what level of care is required to be successful with a given species.
We are currently playing with some "Wine Red Dragonets" (Sp. not yet confirmed) in one of our display tanks, but we are still not ready to offer them to customers... This is the kind of fish that, if we were to offer them, we'd make sure that they were acclimated to eating prepared foods for some time before offering them for sale. Even then, I think people would have to understand that they still may not eat well or thrive...That's the price of progress...and understanding of what we as hobbyists can expect...
Thanks!
Scott
airin
Community Member
I looked for 2 or 3 months for a captive bred one after the one we initially got didn't make it. I finally gave up and bought another wild one. 7 months later and well over $100 seeding my tank/fuge a few times to make sure he had enough food and he is thriving.
I would surely pay more for captive bred fish, as after reading a few articles about the methods that are used to capture fish and how many are lost to how many actually make it I have pretty much stopped buying fish all together. =/ This is an expensive hobby to begin with and I think that we owe it to our children, grand-children, etc. to make sure they can enjoy it too.
I would surely pay more for captive bred fish, as after reading a few articles about the methods that are used to capture fish and how many are lost to how many actually make it I have pretty much stopped buying fish all together. =/ This is an expensive hobby to begin with and I think that we owe it to our children, grand-children, etc. to make sure they can enjoy it too.
DanConnor
Valuable Member
Regardless of the fact that plenty of people want to buy wild-caught mandarins- I would think there would still be a good market for CB mandarins also. I certainly would pay the extra.
Eienna
5000 Club Member
Great information and relatable story! I think that it's so important to share these types of success stories with other hobbyists...Not just so that others try to keep fish that are challenging- thats a pretty superficial suggestion...Rather, because it shows others just what level of care is required to be successful with a given species.
We are currently playing with some "Wine Red Dragonets" (Sp. not yet confirmed) in one of our display tanks, but we are still not ready to offer them to customers... This is the kind of fish that, if we were to offer them, we'd make sure that they were acclimated to eating prepared foods for some time before offering them for sale. Even then, I think people would have to understand that they still may not eat well or thrive...That's the price of progress...and understanding of what we as hobbyists can expect...
Thanks!
Scott
Gorgeous, aren't they? ♡
I was having some trouble deciding whether to try one of those or get myself a green mandarin again XD
I'm just surprised that both my scooter and old mandarin have liked the nls pellets (not right off the bat, obviously, but both accepted it as a regular staple). I'm thinking maybe it has quite a bit to do with their podless well-being. It sounds kind of sacrilegious, honestly, given the deserved reputation of most pellets and flakes...but after using it for most of my fishkeeping "career" and seriously examining it in relation to others I've seen, I really think this one is different.
I've also noticed that while ova is not a complete diet, it does seem to be recognized as food faster than many other frozens, which could make it a good starter for getting them used to prepared food.
mega_mike
Community Member
The price of such things is fixed. That is to say that if we get it for a cheap price monetarily the rest of the cost is picked up by the environment or thrid world children. For example you get those madrines for $20 cheaper then normal well that $20 still has to be paid you just end up sticking the coral reef with the bill do this enough and there is no more reef
OP
OP
OP
OP
I think there is room for both, but I think it's disappointing that the CB ones seem to be priced to the point where the consumers won't see the real value...
-Scott
OP
OP
Very nicely stated...Great point of view on this. The thing I remember most from the Eco Marine PNG thing was that the fishers were being paid handsomely, in the hope that this would not only create desirable jobs, but create a greater appreciation among the native population for the value (economic AND ecological) of the reefs, and how important it was to protect them...It was a good approach on paper, but the market just couldn't bear the additional cost of the fishes. I can't help but wonder if greater value ( and a more expensive price tag) were applied to all fish, how the market would look...
Scott
Has anyone here actually seen ORA's video of their CB Mandarins?
Born & raised in BB tanks. No rock, no corals, no sub straight, no other kinds of fish.
The food is dropped into the tank where it settles nicely on the bottom. No flow pushing it around. They either eat what's given to them or they die.
ORA does not offer these fish Copepods! They are fed NLS pellets and Nutramar Ova. ORA states they have been known to accept Blood Worms.
From personal experience these ORA fish are doomed from the start. Ever try acclimating a fish to a tank with a sandy bottom, LR & corals? To a tank with power heads? I did! Twice! It was heart wrenching to watch. I cried, yes I did. The first died from starvation within 2 days. It arrived totally emaciated. The replacement wasn't much better and after 5-6x daily feedings and a tank full of pod it too died.
These fish were NOT normal! They showed no hunting behavior. They were in shock
IMO price had nothing to do with ORA stopping their CB Mandarin program. More like that the fish failed to survive & thrive in a NORMAL environment.
It's been over a year since my experience and as you can tell it is still a very sensitive subject for me
Born & raised in BB tanks. No rock, no corals, no sub straight, no other kinds of fish.
The food is dropped into the tank where it settles nicely on the bottom. No flow pushing it around. They either eat what's given to them or they die.
ORA does not offer these fish Copepods! They are fed NLS pellets and Nutramar Ova. ORA states they have been known to accept Blood Worms.
From personal experience these ORA fish are doomed from the start. Ever try acclimating a fish to a tank with a sandy bottom, LR & corals? To a tank with power heads? I did! Twice! It was heart wrenching to watch. I cried, yes I did. The first died from starvation within 2 days. It arrived totally emaciated. The replacement wasn't much better and after 5-6x daily feedings and a tank full of pod it too died.
These fish were NOT normal! They showed no hunting behavior. They were in shock
IMO price had nothing to do with ORA stopping their CB Mandarin program. More like that the fish failed to survive & thrive in a NORMAL environment.
It's been over a year since my experience and as you can tell it is still a very sensitive subject for me
Bouncingsoul39
Valuable Member
As someone who managed a high volume LFS and one of the people who was very excited for the captive mandarins and got them in the moment they hit the stock list I will say this:
The first and second batches I got in from ORA did not eat. Period. I tried a dozen different frozen and dried foods of all sizes and consistencies and nothing. At no point for the weeks I had them did they eat any proposed foods. I was on the phone with my rep trying to trouble shoot it and figure out the problem with no luck. I've heard from one other LFS nearby that he got some in and they did eat but did not sell due to the price. I could not sell them because they did not eat. I had people willing to pay the price. If they ate.
ORA originally marketed them as "eating prepared food" and for me this was the main selling point and only realistic justification for the high cost. If you say that something will eat prepared foods then it should. If if will only do so under certain circumstances or will do so but must have food available nearly constantly then that should have been stated from the get go and it wasn't.
Fact is, this industry is driven by the beginner to intermediate hobbyist. This customer will not pay a much higher price, which is for all purposes, a similar product. And I don't believe they should. It is not the consumer's job to support businesses or captive breeding projects. It is the consumers job to obtain a quality item at a fair price or in some cases the lowest possible price.
In my mind, ORA should have stuck with the program until they figured out a way to lower their own costs or they should have sold the mandarins at a loss until they were accepted and established in the industry. I think there are many factors here, but another point is why try to compete with a very cheaply and readily available product? It's the same thing with captive Bangaii Cardinals. They're trying to sell them unsuccessfully for stupid prices.
It's all well and good to come on here an lament the sad state of the hobby and point the finger at the hobbyist. I point the finger at ORA here.
The first and second batches I got in from ORA did not eat. Period. I tried a dozen different frozen and dried foods of all sizes and consistencies and nothing. At no point for the weeks I had them did they eat any proposed foods. I was on the phone with my rep trying to trouble shoot it and figure out the problem with no luck. I've heard from one other LFS nearby that he got some in and they did eat but did not sell due to the price. I could not sell them because they did not eat. I had people willing to pay the price. If they ate.
ORA originally marketed them as "eating prepared food" and for me this was the main selling point and only realistic justification for the high cost. If you say that something will eat prepared foods then it should. If if will only do so under certain circumstances or will do so but must have food available nearly constantly then that should have been stated from the get go and it wasn't.
Fact is, this industry is driven by the beginner to intermediate hobbyist. This customer will not pay a much higher price, which is for all purposes, a similar product. And I don't believe they should. It is not the consumer's job to support businesses or captive breeding projects. It is the consumers job to obtain a quality item at a fair price or in some cases the lowest possible price.
In my mind, ORA should have stuck with the program until they figured out a way to lower their own costs or they should have sold the mandarins at a loss until they were accepted and established in the industry. I think there are many factors here, but another point is why try to compete with a very cheaply and readily available product? It's the same thing with captive Bangaii Cardinals. They're trying to sell them unsuccessfully for stupid prices.
It's all well and good to come on here an lament the sad state of the hobby and point the finger at the hobbyist. I point the finger at ORA here.
Need for a new breeder I guess, I'm going to call it OrA OrA marine.
No kidding Scott, you hit the nail again.
Have no comment as of now but will follow and maybe with this topic again we hobbyist can make a difference.
Something needs to be happing.
Myself have for about 90% Captive grown corals as I really don't care for large colonies.
I know who I'm buying from.
No kidding Scott, you hit the nail again.
Have no comment as of now but will follow and maybe with this topic again we hobbyist can make a difference.
Something needs to be happing.
Myself have for about 90% Captive grown corals as I really don't care for large colonies.
I know who I'm buying from.
I spent a good long time looking for captive bred Mandarin myself, went as far as calling the local aquarium to see if they could get one for me. All efforts failed, so I bought wild. He is now fat and happy in my tank, I do suppliment with pods from time to time, but mainly I let him do what he does and enjoy him for the beautiful fish he is. I had a mated pair in a 15 gal tank in the 80s, I would watch them court and spawn, but we knew nothing of rearing them back then, Never knew about pods either, Amazing that they lived nearly a decade together in a 15 gal on flake and brine shrimp. It was a tank crash that finally got them.
Eienna
5000 Club Member
Has anyone here actually seen ORA's video of their CB Mandarins?
Born & raised in BB tanks. No rock, no corals, no sub straight, no other kinds of fish.
The food is dropped into the tank where it settles nicely on the bottom. No flow pushing it around. They either eat what's given to them or they die.
ORA does not offer these fish Copepods! They are fed NLS pellets and Nutramar Ova. ORA states they have been known to accept Blood Worms.
From personal experience these ORA fish are doomed from the start. Ever try acclimating a fish to a tank with a sandy bottom, LR & corals? To a tank with power heads? I did! Twice! It was heart wrenching to watch. I cried, yes I did. The first died from starvation within 2 days. It arrived totally emaciated. The replacement wasn't much better and after 5-6x daily feedings and a tank full of pod it too died.
These fish were NOT normal! They showed no hunting behavior. They were in shock
IMO price had nothing to do with ORA stopping their CB Mandarin program. More like that the fish failed to survive & thrive in a NORMAL environment.
It's been over a year since my experience and as you can tell it is still a very sensitive subject for me
That's sad. We need some folks to raise them, yes with prepped foods, but in a proper environment...not to mention...I was hearing that when they came in they were TINY. That tells me thay even if the parents were in breeding condition with such a diet, the babies WERE NOT getting the pellets - their mouths are too small until they get to about 1.5" or so.
My mandarin got his pods until I saw him reliably eating the pellets. Then I tapered off and he did fine. The store had kept him for a good four months, though, they said. He was in good shape when I got him.
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specvjeff
Active Member
This isn't really anything new. Captive bred Banggai Cardinals had and still have the same problem. During Ret Talbot's talk at Reefapalooza in 2012, he brought up a story about a well known online retailer having to lower the price to a point where there was little margin, and remove the wild caught Banggai's from the site entirely just to get hobbyists to buy the captive bred fish.
It blows my mind how many people talk about wanting to be more environmentally friendly but won't put their money where their mouth is. Until we as a hobby can get over this get it cheap as possible mentality when it comes to fish, this will always be a problem and make us as a hobby look bad.
It blows my mind how many people talk about wanting to be more environmentally friendly but won't put their money where their mouth is. Until we as a hobby can get over this get it cheap as possible mentality when it comes to fish, this will always be a problem and make us as a hobby look bad.
Lurking
New Member
Shame on the hobbyists? Really? They were billed as eating prepared foods. Perhaps they did at the ORA facility but they did not in the real world. Simple as that. I don't care how altruistic a company may be. Unless they are a non profit the goal is to make money. ORA could not make money with these fish as they did not eat prepared foods as claimed and once word got around people stopped buying. That's the bottom line.
OP
OP
Has anyone here actually seen ORA's video of their CB Mandarins?
Born & raised in BB tanks. No rock, no corals, no sub straight, no other kinds of fish.
The food is dropped into the tank where it settles nicely on the bottom. No flow pushing it around. They either eat what's given to them or they die.
ORA does not offer these fish Copepods! They are fed NLS pellets and Nutramar Ova. ORA states they have been known to accept Blood Worms.
From personal experience these ORA fish are doomed from the start. Ever try acclimating a fish to a tank with a sandy bottom, LR & corals? To a tank with power heads? I did! Twice! It was heart wrenching to watch. I cried, yes I did. The first died from starvation within 2 days. It arrived totally emaciated. The replacement wasn't much better and after 5-6x daily feedings and a tank full of pod it too died.
These fish were NOT normal! They showed no hunting behavior. They were in shock
IMO price had nothing to do with ORA stopping their CB Mandarin program. More like that the fish failed to survive & thrive in a NORMAL environment.
It's been over a year since my experience and as you can tell it is still a very sensitive subject for me
Very interesting observations. It is obvious that you took great pains and went to great lengths to get these fishes to adopt to captive conditions- or at least, captive conditions in a reef system. It's certainly not your fault or lack of skill, etc. It IS heartbreaking. I must admit, on more than one occasion, I noted to myself the lack of typical "foraging" behavior that you would typically see in this species. However, I think it's a bit too generalized to say that the fishes couldn't thrive in "normal" conditions. Angelfish and cichlids are bred and reared in bare bottom tanks and then end up in "community" aquariums worldwide...Some live, some die. Granted, Mandarins are not cichlids, but I don't think it's ORA's fault. I don't think it's your fault, either. Live animals sometimes die despite our best efforts, and it is bitter to watch...
Look, I sell corals. I sell some unusual and challenging corals, such as Chalices, deepwater Acros, etc. I have talked with many "advanced" hobbyists (some of the "household names" in the reef hobby) that couldn't get their Xenia to do well, couldn't get an Acan to open up, and watched helplessly as their Acropora RTN'd, despite providing what we would all call "successful" reef systems ran under "normal" conditions. Does that mean it's the propagator's fault, or then vendor? I don't think so. This is an animal, subjected to lots of variables during it's journey from "farm" or reef to the ultimate consumer...A lot can happen.
It flat out could be that you simply received two individuals that were not in optimum condition, doomed from the start before you ever laid your eyes on them. Do you know exactly how they were handled, fed, etc. between the time they left ORA and arrived at your reef? What was the temp in the package as it was shipped? Was the pH in the bags reduced, were the digestive in fauna in the fishes' intestinal tract damaged by "prophylactic" medication somewhere along the line? Who knows...
Regardless, I am still a believer in what I was told by ORA...the program was more of a victim of economics rather than long-term viability. ORA Assessors seem to be slow sellers for reasons I can't understand. They are downright beautiful and eat well...the first few releases were not all that pretty, IMHO. The ones we receive now are virtually indistinguishable from their wild counterparts, with the exception that they eat right out of the bag, etc.
Good and bad here...definitely worth discussion..Thank you for sharing your experiences!
-Scott
DeadheadSC
Community Member
Started on frozen brine, then bloodworms, then mysis. 3+ years with very few pods, if any, in the system. Also survived a trip to the sump.
I'm all for sustainability and captive breeding. I don't think that many of us who realize your're purchasing a fish that is going to live for years would have any problem paying extra for the sake of the species we collect. I would certainly hope that I am not in a minority on this issue. Frankly, I'd rather not have people in the hobby that didn't feel that way. I believe that you would find no greater advocates for conservation that the hobbyist. IMHO. We love our Mandrin!
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