Lineage... a can of worms has been opened

[Stray32]

So I was on a bit of a rant yesterday in a vendor's sale thread, and I apologize for that, though I still feel strongly that I was correct. The discussion turned to the topic of lineage, and that without proper lineage, a coral could not have the same name as "lineaged" coral, whether it was the exact same coral or not. Here is a situation I posted in rebuttal:

"So let's compare this situation to something more common. You are telling me that two granny smith apples grown from two different batches in two different parts of the country... should not have the same name because they didnt come from the same batch? Because two identical polyps grown in different years from different parts of the sea... should have one name, whether they came from the same rock or from the first guy that named them."

Let's consider another example: The Coopers Hawk, which has the name is of a naturalist. They are found from from Canada to Mexico. If today I discover a nest of hawks, which are quite obviously Cooper's Hawks, because I can't trace the guys back to the original hawk that was given the name... then I can't call it a Cooper's Hawk?

That's how someone tried to explain it to me yesterday, and I think that is complete BS. I know this topic has been discussed tirelessly in the past, but I am hoping these specific examples might convince some of you that it doesn't make any sense.

 

[wicked demon]

Just because there are by far more zoa varieties does not mean that PPE palys were not in about a billion tanks before they were called PPE.
Where is the lineage?
I have red slider turtles, now I did not get them from the person who discovered them, or even named them, are they not even turtles due to the fact that I did not get them from god himself?
If it is undoubtably the same, then that is what it is, if it is different, same,
Names are great, lineage is nice when available, but I had strawberry kiwi zoas about 3 years before a large company came along and called them something citrusy, and nobody knows what I am talking about unless I use their nominclature.
I know what I have, and there are many other well educated individuals here who can use common sense to guide them in their coral pursuits.
Picture alteration is the aspect that kills me.

 

[Paul_N]

Maybe I am confused (actually I'm always confused but that is for a different thread) but I always looked at the the lineage thing as a specific person not the actual name per se. So if you had a John Smith Pineapple Express Tort the lineage would be to John Smith, not to the name Pineapple Express. So you could have another Pineapple Express because of appearance but it would not be a J.S. PE Tort? Am I waaay off base? I have never been into named or lineage so trying to learn here also.

 

[wicked demon]

Nice take Paul.

 

[Stray32]

The situation that was presented to be was regarding Rose Nebula zoas. I argued that a vendor's "new" morph were in fact Rose Nebulas. Someone posted that if they could not be traced back to the original colony, then they could not even be called Rose Nebulas.

 

[BlazinNano]

Lineage is pointless to me. I could care less if some put their name on it. Now I like names just cause they help id stuff. But a superman chalice is a superman chalice. Red people eaters are red people eaters. There will always be more then one in the world. I don't care if yours colored up first.

 

[barbianj]

As far as I know, there is not a place where these things are recorded, so how far down the line can a lineage go until it falls apart?

 

[fenderguy1]

The situation that was presented to be was regarding Rose Nebula zoas. I argued that a vendor's "new" morph were in fact Rose Nebulas. Someone posted that if they could not be traced back to the original colony, then they could not even be called Rose Nebulas.

See this is what i dont get aslo. Thousands of whammin watermelons(for example) are sold every year. Now did each of these frags come from the original colony that were named whammin watermelons, no but no one ever says anything.

 

[EliteReefs]

I agree with the original OP. if it looks the same smells the same grows the same. its the same. i hate the "i have the only one and its super rare " mentality that comes up in the hobby. its coral, and when they come in they never come in with just ONE. you maye have only got one but you can bet your butt several others came in with it. Not only that but there are tons more where those came from and once the hobby says "ooo we like that" all of a sudden the collectors are bringing it in by the boat load. acan and chalice are great examples of that. chalice has been around forever. nearly 10 years ago i had a HUGE mummy eye. at the time is was called LPS and many did not dig deeper then that. noone knew much about then cause when they came in it was always nasty brown and looked like crap but if you bought one you learned that they imporved GREATLY in our tanks. they were a dime a dozen

fast forward 7 years and now they are rare?? please not even close. nice yes, but far from rare. you can apply a similar story to the acans. its almost all marketing and hype IMO.

PS: it is imprtant to note that when a person ads there name to the front of a coral name i think thats just fine because it can be used to trace a coral and keep track of color of a proven coral. .


As for whos right? does it really matter? by the corals you like. i dont care if its call jimmy jack or joe, if i like it i buy it and i will pay whatever its worth to me.

 

[Eynonreefer]

IMO this whole thing with names and linage is total BS. Name+Linage=$$$$$$$$ come on people this hobby is getting way out of control.

 

[EliteReefs]

See this is what i dont get aslo. Thousands of whammin watermelons(for example) are sold every year. Now did each of these frags come from the original colony that were named whammin watermelons, no but no one ever says anything.

thats cause its a cheap common coral. you can buy HUGE colonys for 40-60 bucks at the average LFS. this kinda of conversation normaly only comes up with the high dollar stuff

 

[ficklefins]

I like this topic! I also agree with Elite

I agree with the original OP. if it looks the same smells the same grows the same. its the same. i hate the "i have the only one and its super rare " mentality that comes up in the hobby. its coral, and when they come in they never come in with just ONE. you maye have only got one but you can bet your butt several others came in with it.

 

[fenderguy1]

thats cause its a cheap common coral. you can buy HUGE colonys for 40-60 bucks at the average LFS. this kinda of conversation normaly only comes up with the high dollar stuff

You have failed to see my point.... so a Rose Nebula zoa that looks just like every other rose nebula zoa cannot be called a rose nebula until lineage is provided. But a whammin watermelon, p.e., tubbs blue etc etc are to common to care about....

 

[korndogg091]

You have failed to see my point.... so a Rose Nebula zoa that looks just like every other rose nebula zoa cannot be called a rose nebula until lineage is provided. But a whammin watermelon, p.e., tubbs blue etc etc are to common to care about....

it sounds like you two are saying the same thing to me. when its common zoas or chalices no one cares because there isnt money to be made, but everyone all of a sudden cares about lineage when it comes to high dollar items. People used to care about tubs blue, they were new and had a name. now know one cares who they came from. space monsters, rose nebulas, strawberry wines are all the same thing but people want to cash in because under there lighting it doesnt have as much splatter or a little bit more black. I can throw a ppe under MH and put it towards the top to develope sparkle pattern, do i rename it and charge $150/polyp? corals morph under different lighting and conditions, renaming a common coral and putting a name on it is lame and it makes the person look bad imho.

 

[Jcr's Reef]

Just because there are by far more zoa varieties does not mean that PPE palys were not in about a billion tanks before they were called PPE.
Where is the lineage?
I have red slider turtles, now I did not get them from the person who discovered them, or even named them, are they not even turtles due to the fact that I did not get them from god himself?
If it is undoubtably the same, then that is what it is, if it is different, same,
Names are great, lineage is nice when available, but I had strawberry kiwi zoas about 3 years before a large company came along and called them something citrusy, and nobody knows what I am talking about unless I use their nominclature.
I know what I have, and there are many other well educated individuals here who can use common sense to guide them in their coral pursuits.
Picture alteration is the aspect that kills me.

Can you frag a red ear slider? Maybe if we frag a red spot we can have a red turtle! lol...but whether or not this sub-specie is identical to others of its kind or not (spots,marking,etc..) its still called the red ear slider. But lets look at other reptile breeders and hobbyist. Are they re-naming certain species with the breeders name attached? For example: Wicked Demon's Red Bearded Dragons....I haven't seen anyone do it in other hobby's, only this one.

The whole name thing is really getting ridiculous when it comes to coral. Most don't even know what the actual name is of the corals they are aquiring. SPS covers a wide array of several certain species. We just pay attention to the name that is stamped on it (L.E., Tyree, cornbread, and the list goes on and on) or the name that is getting the most hype. Why praise one person (ex: Tyree) for acquiring corals FROM OTHER HOBBYIST just to have them named after him to bring more $$ in. Really? Why is that? Understand that he is a respected guy and all, but he is acquiring pieces from other sources, why isn't he naming them after the originator, because after all, he isn't the originator?

Now there are several hobbyist that are trying to name coral after themselves instead of identifying what actual specie of coral they have in their possession. We dis them for copying names already out there because of the whole lineage thing (take your pick right), or flame them for making up their own or re-naming certain pieces. What gives? Just like I was looking at a sponsors site with zoa's that where listed as hornets, when they weren't even close to being the real deal. Why? Because the name itself sells.

With all honesty, I have several ORA corals and such, but I couldn't tell you which ones they are. Why, cuz I really don't care. The lineage isn't going to make me happy and I don't have name markers beside each and every piece in my tank reminding me what "name" they are. If it looks nice and pleases my eye I buy. When I frag coral I try not to give the same name as it was given to me as, instead I usually just post a picture of it and let the buyer decide if they want it for the actual piece it is, not the name that is attached to it.

 

[FishLipz]

I don't understand the whole name thing either way. It's all Mother Natures LE whatever. You can call a honda a ferarri but its still a honda and Im smart enough to see that, and Im not giving you 100k for a civic. If somebody wants to put a name to something so we as collectors have a way to I.D. a proven captivity adaptable coral, so be it, I can live with that. What kills me is people complaining about the names driving up prices. If as a collector you are dumb enough to look at two identical pieces yet pay more for a name, you're an idiot, plain and simple.

 

[wicked demon]

Can you frag a red ear slider? Maybe if we frag a red spot we can have a red turtle! lol...but whether or not this sub-specie is identical to others of its kind or not (spots,marking,etc..) its still called the red ear slider. But lets look at other reptile breeders and hobbyist. Are they re-naming certain species with the breeders name attached? For example: Wicked Demon's Red Bearded Dragons....I haven't seen anyone do it in other hobby's, only this one.

The whole name thing is really getting ridiculous when it comes to coral. Most don't even know what the actual name is of the corals they are aquiring. SPS covers a wide array of several certain species. We just pay attention to the name that is stamped on it (L.E., Tyree, cornbread, and the list goes on and on) or the name that is getting the most hype. Why praise one person (ex: Tyree) for acquiring corals FROM OTHER HOBBYIST just to have them named after him to bring more $$ in. Really? Why is that? Understand that he is a respected guy and all, but he is acquiring pieces from other sources, why isn't he naming them after the originator, because after all, he isn't the originator?

Now there are several hobbyist that are trying to name coral after themselves instead of identifying what actual specie of coral they have in their possession. We dis them for copying names already out there because of the whole lineage thing (take your pick right), or flame them for making up their own or re-naming certain pieces. What gives? Just like I was looking at a sponsors site with zoa's that where listed as hornets, when they weren't even close to being the real deal. Why? Because the name itself sells.

With all honesty, I have several ORA corals and such, but I couldn't tell you which ones they are. Why, cuz I really don't care. The lineage isn't going to make me happy and I don't have name markers beside each and every piece in my tank reminding me what "name" they are. If it looks nice and pleases my eye I buy. When I frag coral I try not to give the same name as it was given to me as, instead I usually just post a picture of it and let the buyer decide if they want it for the actual piece it is, not the name that is attached to it.

Red factor sun conure?
Citrus phase beardie?
What about geckos?--->CrestedGecko.com - Home
corn snakes
discus?
MMJ?
c'mon man its everywhere.....
and dont even get me started on dog breeders.....

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Stray I see your point and agree to an extent. I hate the whole lineage thing myself, but what happens when a vendor says ok, yea it looks like rose nebs and then sells them as such? He gets blasted because they were wild and he is trying to "pass" a wild colony off as something that has a name. It's a lose, lose for them. If they say it is rose nebs (without lineage) then they get blasted, if they say it's not and they want to name it they get blasted. So what is the resolution for them and don't say just sell them as pink polyps because they are in business to make money?

 

[droblack]

The original post makes a lot of sense, but does not completely apply to lineaged corals. A species is a species (e.g. Cooper's hawk is Accipiter cooperii, just like many Aussie chalices are Echinophyllia Aspera). Corals are more like different varieties of dogs, there can be drastic differences within genetic lines. If I raise a champion line of poodles, and someone else has a poodle just like mine, should they be able to say it is from my poodle's bloodline? It may be the same species and type of dog, but that doesn't make it the same.

 

[mdb_talon]

I dont care about names or lineage. Having said that I do think names make it easier in discussing/selling/trading. The only thing lineage gives me is an easy way to determine that this frag I am buying is not a recently chopped up colony and something that has been in tanks for awhile which I think is a good thing. Whether it was in Bob's tank down the road for 3 years or came from Jason Fox though is completely irrelevant to me.

As far as me if it looks like a mummy eye chalice then by all means call it a mummy eye chalice. Just dont call it a Tyree LE mummy eye chalice unless it actually is. As for me I dont care if it is Tyree (JF,WWC, etc, etc), but it seems many people do.