0 nitrate/0 phosphate

[homer1475]

LOl feed my fish. 2 rotations twice a day with a mix of NLS, TDO, and algae max pellets(morning and around noon when I'm at work), a large chunk of PE Mysis, a cube of PE calanus,a small sheet of nori(not to may algae eaters as fish) and 120ml of live phyto daily to an 80G system.

I do not have nitrate or phosphate issues. I was just posting to say why one would prefer to dose a chemical, over feeding more food. Feeding more isn't always the answer to nutrient problems.

Would you just feed more if your nitrates were say 10, and your phosphates were 0, or super low?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand why one would suggest just feeding more(and adding more nutrients when not all nutrients are needed), over dosing exactly what one needs?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why use a chemical to bring it up when you can use a food source?

That sentence suggests your preference (and a possible bias against what you call a chemical) but not really a reason.

It is possible but not guaranteed that he can bring phosphate to a desirable value without nitrate rising too much using a food high in P. That is guaranteed with dosing, and that’s one reason to prefer dosing.

Cost and lack of other possible complications of high food use (such as unsightly uneaten food detritus, driving pests like vermatids that eat the suspended foods, yellowing of the water, and consumption of O2) are other possible reasons to prefer dosing, especially when nitrate does not require a boost.

 

[stovenut]

LOl feed my fish. 2 rotations twice a day with a mix of NLS, TDO, and algae max pellets(morning and around noon when I'm at work), a large chunk of PE Mysis, a cube of PE calanus,a small sheet of nori(not to may algae eaters as fish) and 120ml of live phyto daily to an 80G system.

I do not have nitrate or phosphate issues. I was just posting to say why one would prefer to dose a chemical, over feeding more food. Feeding more isn't always the answer to nutrient problems.

Would you just feed more if your nitrates were say 10, and your phosphates were 0, or super low?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand why one would suggest just feeding more(and adding more nutrients when not all nutrients are needed), over dosing exactly what one needs?

You're fine. It's not argumentative. You just disagree. I suppose if I miraculously had 0 phosphates and I had high nitrates I would need to resort to dosing phosphates. I just know my tank and it will never happen. I will more likely need to dose nitrates (And I actually have sodium nitrate just in case.)

Your advice is valid. Having 0 phosphates is a very temporary issue. Adding more reef roids to the feeding regiment solves the temporary problem and has added benefits. I would prefer it my way. But I also respect your way as it also works.

 

[Subsea]

I grow ornamental seaweed lagoons as mixed gardens with few corals and many other inverts. Most macro algae will consume nitrogen/phosphate in a ratio of 30:1, some as high as 100:1. The Redfield Ratio of 16:1 defines phytoplankton consumption. As a Gardner and commercial grower of red Ogo, I target required nutrients. As a marine engineer, more food is more difficult to manage in that more nutrient export is required unless your system is mature enough to recycle and grow. More than one way to operate a marine ecosystem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Having 0 phosphates is a very temporary issue.

Not always. There are members who dose it every day.

 

[stovenut]

That sentence suggests your preference (and a possible bias against what you call a chemical) but not really a reason.

It is possible but not guaranteed that he can bring phosphate to a desirable value without nitrate rising too much using a food high in P. That is guaranteed with dosing, and that’s one reason to prefer dosing.

Cost and lack of other possible complications of high food use (such as unsightly uneaten food detritus, driving pests like vermatids that eat the suspended foods, yellowing of the water, and consumption of O2) are other possible reasons to prefer dosing, especially when nitrate does not require a boost.

I think your solution is perfectly reasonable and sensible. But not every reefer is a chemist or thinks like a chemist.

Important fact you are not addressing: Very few reefers ever have a struggle with high nitrates and 0 phosphates. I'm sure you can think of a scenario, but it's not the point.

The OP can use either strategy. One involves buying a chemical or bottle containing said chemical and figuring out a dosing strategy and solving the problem. The other strategy is to add a higher phosphate food to your feeding regiment. The risk of a sudden nitrate spike is minimal. The benefit is healthy corals, small fish and inverts. Either strategy works. Some think the chemistry solution is the best solution. Some, due to preference or bias, prefer not dosing more chemicals.

 

[Subsea]

@stovenut
Adding more fish and more food has other ramifications, like fish stress over territory. The OP tank is less than 1 year old. More fish and more food require more maintenance and janitors.

Nutrient management comes in a lot of flavors.
Viva La difference,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think your solution is perfectly reasonable and sensible. But not every reefer is a chemist or thinks like a chemist.

Important fact you are not addressing: Very few reefers ever have a struggle with high nitrates and 0 phosphates. I'm sure you can think of a scenario, but it's not the point.

The OP can use either strategy. One involves buying a chemical or bottle containing said chemical and figuring out a dosing strategy and solving the problem. The other strategy is to add a higher phosphate food to your feeding regiment. The risk of a sudden nitrate spike is minimal. The benefit is healthy corals, small fish and inverts. Either strategy works. Some think the chemistry solution is the best solution. Some, due to preference or bias, prefer not dosing more chemicals.

i think if you search this forum you’ll find many more folks needing phosphate increases and not nitrate than you assume. It’s not just a theoretical problem.

it’s especially problematic for folks starting with bare dry rock where the rock can take up tens of ppm of phosphate, and no nitrate, and foods just don’t solve the problem in a reasonable time frame.

 

[stovenut]

i think if you search this forum you’ll find many more folks needing phosphate increases and not nitrate than you assume. It’s not just a theoretical problem.

it’s especially problematic for folks starting with bare dry rock where the rock can take up tens of ppm of phosphate, and no nitrate, and foods just don’t solve the problem in a reasonable time frame.

Fair enough. Apparently the only way to raise phosphates safely is to pour phosphate-raising chemicals into your aquarium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fair enough. Apparently the only way to raise phosphates safely is to pour phosphate-raising chemicals into your aquarium.

FWIW, I frequently recommend feeding more (when it is a good option).

 

[Sebastiancrab]

feeding more is a fine plan, as is dosing.

If you go the dosing route, I recommend food grade sodium nitrate and phosphate from amazon.

Randy, can you kindly point to these on Amazon? How do I measure how much to use? I have a tank that needs to raise both. Thank you!

@Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

i think if you search this forum you’ll find many more folks needing phosphate increases and not nitrate than you assume. It’s not just a theoretical problem.

it’s especially problematic for folks starting with bare dry rock where the rock can take up tens of ppm of phosphate, and no nitrate, and foods just don’t solve the problem in a reasonable time frame.

I have no scientific data, just my personal experience. When I started a new bare bottom, dry rock system a few years back I struggled with nutrients. I tried the feed more recommendations, but if you feed more than the fish will consume it just ends up creating more detritus and, for me, it did not support my needs. I would have had to dump in a lot of food! I’ve been dosing nitrate and phosphate for a couple years now. It’s just what works for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, can you kindly point to these on Amazon? How do I measure how much to use? I have a tank that needs to raise both. Thank you!

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Google James planted tank calculator on making solutions and how much to dose. Use the entry for potassium nitrate but actually use sodium nitrate (food or acs grade) and the entry for potassium phosphate (use food grade sodium phosphate).

On Amazon, look for food grade. Loudwolf is a good brand if available.

 

[KStatefan]

Randy, can you kindly point to these on Amazon? How do I measure how much to use? I have a tank that needs to raise both. Thank you!

@Randy Holmes-Farley

This is what I use





My mixing formula is based on my 17 gallon tank and wanting to dose in measuring spoon amounts.

 

[djf91]

Low nitrates and phosphates, despite new popular belief, isn’t always something to be feared or a sign that something is wrong. Especially if you’re feeding and exporting nutrients heavily. Can you post a pic of the zoanthids?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Low nitrates and phosphates, despite new popular belief, isn’t always something to be feared or a sign that something is wrong. Especially if you’re feeding and exporting nutrients heavily. Can you post a pic of the zoanthids?

You do not agree that it represents a risk for Dino’s?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is what I use





My mixing formula is based on my 17 gallon tank and wanting to dose in measuring spoon amounts.

Those are good choices.

 

[djf91]

You do not agree that it represents a risk for Dino’s?

Many system’s in the past and some in the present ran/run undetectable nitrates and phosphates without a hint of Dinoflagellates. This is a new phenomenon in reefkeeping.

What’s changed? Nobody uses liverock anymore.

I believe there are certain microfauna (that we used to introduce with liverock in the past) that outcompete Dinoflagellates at undetectable levels.

Now we raise nutrients until some other nuisance species of algae takes over.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Many system’s in the past and some in the present ran/run undetectable nitrates and phosphates without a hint of Dinoflagellates. This is a new phenomenon in reefkeeping.

What’s changed? Nobody uses liverock anymore.

I believe there are certain microfauna (that we used to introduce with liverock in the past) that outcompete Dinoflagellates at undetectable levels.

Now we raise nutrients until some other nuisance species of algae takes over.

I don't discount that the rock may play a role. Maybe a big role.

Doesn't mean that nutrients do not also play a role.

Many folks smoke without getting lung cancer. Many folks get exposed to radon and do not get lung cancer.

Both are clearly risk factors that increase your chances of getting lung cancer.

Likewise, very low nutrients and bare dead rock both seem likely risk factors for dinos, and if the tank is already set up, nutrients is the easier one to impact.

 

[djf91]

I don't discount that the rock may play a role. Maybe a big role.

Doesn't mean that nutrients do not also play a role.

Many folks smoke without getting lung cancer. Many folks get exposed to radon and do not get lung cancer.

Both are clearly risk factors that increase your chances of getting lung cancer.

Likewise, very low nutrients and bare dead rock both seem likely risk factors for dinos, and if the tank is already set up, nutrients is the easier one to impact.

I would respectfully disagree that it’s the easier one to impact, considering that it takes months for some people to bring up N and P. Not to mention that some people get caught in this back and forth between Dinos and hair algae.

It’d be interesting to see more people add live rock from the one of the gulf company’s or ipsf, or live sand. Or even something like Fiji mud.