0 Nitrate en dinos in nano

[patlansky]

Hi everyone,

I have a Waterbox Peninsula 15 (about 57L / 15 gallon AIO) reef tank that’s almost 1.5 months old. Everything seems to be going well except one thing. My nitrate is stuck at 0 ppm no matter what I do, and I believe this may be stressing my corals. I used live sand and dry rock, and I’ve been dosing bacteria daily. I also have what I first thought were diatoms, but now I suspect they might actually be dinos, because they look slimy/jelly-like and things are not really improving.

Here is the full information:

Livestock:
• 2 clownfish
• 2 trochus snails
• 2 nassarius snails

Corals:
• 2 Rhodactis mushrooms (Forest Fire + Indonesian)
• 4 small zoa frags
• A small colony of Xenia
• 2 Euphyllia hammers

Filtration:
• Filter wool
• ~100 ml activated carbon
• A small amount of biomedia in the rear chamber
• No skimmer


Parameters:
• Salinity: 1.0265
• Ammonia & nitrite: 0
• Nitrate: still 0 ppm
• Phosphate: unknown yet (I don’t have a test kit yet)
• KH was 7.0, now slowly improving with water changes → currently 7.3 (using Aquaforest Reef Salt)
• I feed the clowns twice per day and even increased feeding to try to raise nutrients

I am seeing what appears to be dinos spreading, corals are losing color and getting weaker, and on my hammer corals some tentacles look bent and less healthy. I’m worried the ultra-low nutrients are part of the problem.

My plan is to carefully dose nitrate to slowly raise it to a stable level around 5–10 ppm, as I suspect the current zero nitrate level may be contributing to coral stress. I am also going to purchase a phosphate test kit soon. Since my LFS is not very close, I am considering buying a phosphate supplement as well, in case my phosphate also turns out to be zero. For now, I plan to continue with weekly water changes using Aquaforest Reef Salt. Because this is a nano reef, I do not plan to start AFR or dosing systems yet, as I believe regular water changes should provide the necessary elements at this stage.

Any advice or experiences with similar situations would be really appreciated! Thanks!

 

[EnterName]

The tank is only 1.5 months old. It's going through the "ugly phase". It begins with diatoms (and often also dinoflagellates) and continues with green hair algae. This is expected and normal. There are approaches to keep corals early, but in general people don't add corals before the green hair algae phase comes to an end.

Depending on the used rock and sand it is also pretty common to have non-dectable nutrient levels in this stage. There is simply too much microbiological growth that drains nutrients. Adding nutrients will feed algae and also dinoflagellates on this stage even more, as there isn't much competition.

I would add a skimmer and let nature do its thing without much intervention. Depending on how much live rock or sand was used you will have to be more or less patient.

The corals will have a very bad time. If returning them for a while or a different tank isn't an option you will need to carefully remove the brown slime regularly so they hopefully get enough light. If you are not adding a skimmer I would suggest getting a few air pumps to ensure there is enough oxygen for your fish once the first bacteria blooms start.

 

[patlansky]

Thanks for your answer. I was aware of the ugly phase, so I actually expected diatoms and accepted them as normal. What confused me is that this doesn’t really feel like normal diatoms anymore. The brown film is slimy and stringy and doesn’t really decline, so I suspected dinoflagellates. That’s why I initially only added easy corals. Later I took a bit more risk and added hammers too, even though I’m still quite new to saltwater tanks.

My ammonia and nitrite have been stable at zero for about 3 weeks, and nitrate is also constantly zero, so I assumed the initial bacteria bloom had already stabilised. I actually do have a skimmer, but I didn’t run it on purpose because with nutrients already at zero I wasn’t sure what benefit it would bring (other than oxygenation). I now understand your suggestion is mainly for oxygen and stability, although I’m still a bit afraid it may strip even more nutrients.

Trochus snails are doing a great job on the rocks, and I manually clean the glass frequently. Sand is a bit harder to keep clean. Since I don’t really have the option to return the corals, my idea was that carefully dosing nutrients might help them recover and grow, so they could hopefully compete better against the dinos/diatoms. Do you think this is a wrong assumption?

 

[EnterName]

Thanks for your answer. I was aware of the ugly phase, so I actually expected diatoms and accepted them as normal. What confused me is that this doesn’t really feel like normal diatoms anymore. The brown film is slimy and stringy and doesn’t really decline, so I suspected dinoflagellates. That’s why I initially only added easy corals. Later I took a bit more risk and added hammers too, even though I’m still quite new to saltwater tanks.

My ammonia and nitrite have been stable at zero for about 3 weeks, and nitrate is also constantly zero, so I assumed the initial bacteria bloom had already stabilised. I actually do have a skimmer, but I didn’t run it on purpose because with nutrients already at zero I wasn’t sure what benefit it would bring (other than oxygenation). I now understand your suggestion is mainly for oxygen and stability, although I’m still a bit afraid it may strip even more nutrients.

Trochus snails are doing a great job on the rocks, and I manually clean the glass frequently. Sand is a bit harder to keep clean. Since I don’t really have the option to return the corals, my idea was that carefully dosing nutrients might help them recover and grow, so they could hopefully compete better against the dinos/diatoms. Do you think this is a wrong assumption?

Just run the skimmer really dry (low foam level) and it won't remove anything out of the water, but still provide gas exchange.

Dinoflagellates are pretty common in young tanks and I can only recommend accepting them for now. Every little parameter you change may disturb the currently establishing equilibrium between water parameters and microbiological activity. It's really difficult to say if changes are for better or worse.

As long as there is so much growth, there should be enough nutrients for now. Be patient :)

 

[Subsea]

@patlansky
I think you have a Dinoflagellets problem because your zero nutrients limit desirables which allows opportunistic Dino’s to flourish. Get more consumers in your clean up crew and feed your system.

PS: Get a phosphate test kit before your tank crashes.
Running low nutrients is a big problem in new tanks. Allow your system to mature. If possible get some mature live rock.

 

[Subsea]

Just run the skimmer really dry (low foam level) and it won't remove anything out of the water, but still provide gas exchange.

Dinoflagellates are pretty common in young tanks and I can only recommend accepting them for now. Every little parameter you change may disturb the currently establishing equilibrium between water parameters and microbiological activity. It's really difficult to say if changes are for better or worse.

As long as there is so much growth, there should be enough nutrients for now. Be patient :)

I see no need for running a protein skimmer if nutrients are already low. However, if more gas exchange is desired, then returning skimmate to tank is a viable option.

 

[Subsea]

@patlansky
Please supply full tank shot with white light. Of special interest is water/air interface. Does your surface have sufficient movement?

PS: Consider starting a tank journal in members tank forum.

 

[EnterName]

Just run the skimmer really dry (low foam level) and it won't remove anything out of the water, but still provide gas exchange.

Dinoflagellates are pretty common in young tanks and I can only recommend accepting them for now. Every little parameter you change may disturb the currently establishing equilibrium between water parameters and microbiological activity. It's really difficult to say if changes are for better or worse.

As long as there is so much growth, there should be enough nutrients for now. Be patient :)

I see no need for running a protein skimmer if nutrients are already low. However, if more gas exchange is desired, then returning skimmate to tank is a viable option.

That's why I said to just keep the foam level low.
The skimmer will need a while until it operates properly anyway and there probably isn't much to remove right now to build stable foam, but returning the skimmate as you suggested would work as well.

If you want to increase nutrient levels it could be possible that feeding isn't enough to reach detectable levels. Especially when a lot of dry rock or substrate was used it will bind a lot of phosphate and all that diatom, dino, and soon green hair algae growth will consume a lot of nitrogen. I'm personally not sure if it really necessary to intervene in any way as other tanks that didn't increase nutrients wouldn't have developed otherwise but it may ne possible that your approach speeds up the process. Hard to tell without testing it. Do you think nutrient stock solutions would help to saturate substrate and rock and add nutrients fast enough to keep them stable?

 

[Subsea]

That's why I said to just keep the foam level low.
The skimmer will need a while until it operates properly anyway and there probably isn't much to remove right now to build stable foam, but returning the skimmate as you suggested would work as well.

If you want to increase nutrient levels it could be possible that feeding isn't enough to reach detectable levels. Especially when a lot of dry rock or substrate was used it will bind a lot of phosphate and all that diatom, dino, and soon green hair algae growth will consume a lot of nitrogen. I'm personally not sure if it really necessary to intervene in any way as other tanks that didn't increase nutrients wouldn't have developed otherwise but it may ne possible that your approach speeds up the process. Hard to tell without testing it. Do you think nutrient stock solutions would help to saturate substrate and rock and add nutrients fast enough to keep them stable?

I think that I would dose inorganic nitrogen & inorganic phosphate and I would feed more. Then, I would use water change while vacuuming substrate to control excessive nutrients.

 

[exnisstech]

I would get a phosphate test. I have to dose N and P when feeding doesn't keep up. There are plenty of articles on how to do it. I use a diy mix of trisodium phosphate for PO4 and ammonium bicarb for NO3. A skimmer can be useful but I see no need for one on a system with low nutrient levels unless added aeration is desired/!needed. JMO running tanks with and without skimmers.
You will need a microscope to ID dinos. I bought a cheap digital scope from Amazon and found out I am currently dealing with dinos in one tank. This is my first time dealing with dinos so I'm in on the job training mode for now and learning.

This scope I bought.

And my discovery.

 

[EnterName]

For OP (just in case you decide to try dosing nutrients):
DIY phosphate dosing
DIY ammonia dosing alternatively DIY nitrate dosing

This scope I bought.
[...]
And my discovery.

A compound microscope for a similar price might be better as more money goes into the optics instead of camera sensors, etc.

Looks like Ostreopsis sp. in the video by the way :D

 

[exnisstech]

For OP (just in case you decide to try dosing nutrients):
DIY phosphate dosing
DIY ammonia dosing alternatively DIY nitrate dosing


A compound microscope for a similar price might be better as more money goes into the optics instead of camera sensors, etc.

Looks like Ostreopsis sp. in the video by the way :D

I agree. Very similar to photography lenses. Never skimp on the glass if you want quality results. This is the first time using a scope in my life and it could use more magnification. I was just looking for one that was cheap and would allow me to capture video to help with getting an ID since I'm ignorant on the subject of Dinos. I'm learning tho lol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm not generally in agreement that water changes maintian trace elements at the salt mix levels in any tank unless the changes are close to 100% daily. It just cannot work out mathematically to be close to what the salt mix adds. Each day, some are depleted, and the water changes cannot possibly bring them back to the starting point.

Is it enough to have, say, 10% of the iron or manganese that is present in a salt mix? Perhaps.

More likely, foods are providing the balance of what is needed.

 

[Subsea]

That's why I said to just keep the foam level low.
The skimmer will need a while until it operates properly anyway and there probably isn't much to remove right now to build stable foam, but returning the skimmate as you suggested would work as well.

If you want to increase nutrient levels it could be possible that feeding isn't enough to reach detectable levels. Especially when a lot of dry rock or substrate was used it will bind a lot of phosphate and all that diatom, dino, and soon green hair algae growth will consume a lot of nitrogen. I'm personally not sure if it really necessary to intervene in any way as other tanks that didn't increase nutrients wouldn't have developed otherwise but it may ne possible that your approach speeds up the process. Hard to tell without testing it. Do you think nutrient stock solutions would help to saturate substrate and rock and add nutrients fast enough to keep them stable?

“If you want to increase nutrient levels it could be possible that feeding isn't enough to reach detectable levels. Especially when a lot of dry rock or substrate was used it will bind a lot of phosphate”

OP,
Using dry rock to start a tank is a source of much anxiety. I would make a big effort to get some mature live rock.

 

[patlansky]

Sorry guys for the late response.

I ended up ordering phosphate test kits, as well as phosphate and nitrate supplements just in case. I also ordered some clean-up crew: 3 cerith snails and a tiger conch.

Before the order arrived, I already did a water change with fresh saltwater, thinking my RO water might have caused dinos (I measured a TDS of 7). Because of the weather, the delivery was delayed. Luckily, my water parameters improved on their own, but at one point the water suddenly became very cloudy. I think this was a bacterial bloom.

At that time, phosphate was 0.25 and nitrate was 5. I also measured a very small amount of nitrite (0.1). I turned on the skimmer, and after a few days the water became very clear again. Phosphate is now around 0.1, and the skimmer is currently running on a low setting. The corals are doing better now.

I also understand now that the cycle is really getting finished at this stage. I know I rushed things because of my enthusiasm. But I don’t regret it. I jumped into this hobby with a lot of excitement, and luckily so far without any losses. To be continued.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for the update! Tank is looking good. :)

I'll just add a few comments.

I cannot think of any reason that tds 7 ro/di would contribute to dinos. It might even help by providing silicate for competing diatoms, if that is significant in your source water, but its certainly worth dropping back to zero for other reasons (such as copper or for preventing diatoms from getting out of hand).

Nitrite is generally not worth measuring, unless the tank is cycling and you are trying to understand if a nitrate result is false high from nitrite interference.

 

[patlansky]

Maybe it’s also important to mention this for others who might come back to this topic regarding TDS measurements of RO water. I had no experience with this before, since this is my first tank.

I initially bought RO water from a car wash near my home. The TDS measured 7. I had read that under 5 is ideal, but that 7 shouldn’t be a big problem. Because I’m a bit of a perfectionist, I later bought RO water from my LFS (about 10 times more expensive) When I got home and measured it, the TDS was 76, so I definitely didn’t use it.

I live in the Netherlands, and my LFS was really shocked that I used water from a car wash, but ironically the car wash water turned out to be much better.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

RO water from a car wash is possibly/likely to be just RO and not DI, hence the 7 ppm TDS.

The LFS water seems a scam to me.

 

[Luminous74]

One remark from my side that may be helpful:
Biology requires nutrients, just like corals do. There are certain opportunistic organisms that are able to thrive even under very limited conditions (e.g. dinoflagellates or cyanobacteria). However, these are usually not the organisms we want to promote in our aquariums.
There are several methods to start a reef aquarium, and many of them can work well. What usually does not work well is mixing different approaches.
With the “fast” method, the core idea is to introduce a sufficient amount of biology into the system early on—primarily by adding corals. It is crucial to control nutrients (especially nitrogen and phosphorus) and to actively prevent nutrient limitation by supplementation if needed.
I would recommend increasing the stocking with a few larger, robust, and relatively inexpensive coral colonies to bring more biology into the tank. The rest of the process then mainly requires time.
If you later plan to keep more sensitive animals, these corals can easily be traded or rehomed.