0 nitrate, high(ish) phosphate, GHA, CUC problems

[BeanAnimal]

I did not say dinoflagellates occur across all nutrient conditions.

I said they can proliferate under a range of conditions, including systems with elevated dissolved organics and systems where nitrogen or phosphorus becomes limiting.

Those are different statements.

Likewise, I did not claim there is a single balance point, target value or universal threshold that controls dinoflagellates. That appears to be your interpretation of my comment rather than something I actually wrote.

If you’re going to challenge my position, it would probably help to challenge the position I actually stated.

You really need to stop paraphrasing my comments and start responding to what I actually say. It would definitely make these discussions considerably shorter.

I am responding to exactly what you said and directly challenging it as abstract, unfalsifiable information and advice that you won't and can't support.

You said: "Dinoflagellate mats can proliferate across a range of environmental conditions, including systems characterised by elevated concentrations of dissolved organic matter as well as those in which nitrogen or phosphate availability has become limiting, the trick to avoiding them is finding a balance."

The first part covers all reef tanks.
The second part tells the OP to find balance.
Your words. All of them.

No metric, no target, no actionable advice. Five posts of reframing later you want to litigate whether balance is singular or plural and that you didn't say exactly what you said. The deflections never end.

The irony is that in trying to avoid the question you confirmed there is no point, no target, and no threshold. You gave the OP a word, not an answer.

Attempting to pin blame on me for long threads is a direct burden shift and exactly opposite of the truth. People engage your claims, you reframe, they chase the reframe, the thread follows. That is the derail. It happens every time you are confronted and it only ends in two ways. The questioner exhausts from chasing deflections, or you drag it the thread into exhaustion with reframes until it dies. Either way the original claim goes unanswered. That is not discussion.

The record speaks for itself and it has become a recognized pattern. At this point you are a disservice to the OP and to anyone doing actual work in this thread.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Alright - this is helpful actionable stuff. I'll take the ATS offline, increase feeding and the lighting cycle. I'm reluctant to take the filter socks out right now because the fish often rip off bits of algae which then float around, and I'd prefer them not stuck in my filter socks.

I'll have to order some GFO (I've never run it before) but I do have phosguard, worth popping some of that in, in the meantime?

Feed smaller more often, fish poop not rotting food. Maybe only run the socks when you feed.

Phosguard short term is okay, long term it can create issues. I would order a GFO product that does not have to be tumbled and can be run in a bag.

 

[lmfbs]

If you are doing water changes, then I would expect that your trace element levels are ok, still iron can be limiting in growing marine algae. Based upon the GHA growth, probably not as big an issue as the light, with regard to the ATS performance.

UV might help with what is present and growing in the system, I don't believe carbon will help or hurt in this fight.

I understand that carbon can be helpful when you've got dinos to reduce general toxicity - but haven't used it for that myself

 

[KrisReef]

I understand that carbon can be helpful when you've got dinos to reduce general toxicity - but haven't used it for that myself

I was really, focused to distraction, on the ATS failing to thrive. I wonder if anyone will suggest "keeping your hands out of the tank" as the best way forward? I hope you find a solution. Pulling hair algae is not very rewarding, but if the CUC keeps dying you have to be the apex GHA predator. GL

 

[Dom]

Parameters:
96g
Nitrate: 0.0 (Hanna HR)
Phos: 0.31 (Hanna ULR)
kH: 8.96 (reefkeeper)
Heating set with inkbird, no fluctuations or anything.

This tank has previously had very high nitrates (100+) but resolved this through automated WCs, carbon dosing and time. Nitrates have been running between 5 - 20 for about 6 months.

Inhabitants:
Foxface
Scopas Tang
Fairy wrasse
2 x clowns
Lepoard wrasse

Previously, I have had snails and 2 chocolate zebra starfish. The snails all died (I assume from dinos) and a few months back, the starfish also died. I have no idea what caused the stars to die - they were otherwise healthy and I had them for about 3 years, but they were at least 7 years old when I got them.

After they died, I tested for copper using a Salfert test, and I have also tested again a few times - no signs. I've never used copper in the tank, but, better safe than sorry.

I've been trying to buy more snails, but I haven't been able to buy any for months. I have 6 turbos on their way to me (I live in NZ and CUC is difficult to come by, and really limits my options).

I have softies and zoas which are growing well. I've never had success keeping SPS, and I'm a bit nervous about spending a bunch of money on corals when the tank is feeling unstable.

The problem
I have GHA, have previously struggled with dinos, and I'm seeing the dinos coming back. I assume this is from low nitrates.

I've been manually removing GHA, using filter socks which I'm changing every 2 days, and wet skimming. I have an algae scrubber, but the tank grows algae quicker than the scrubber right now. The fish aren't very interested in eating the GHA, though sometimes they will pick at it. Maybe I feed them too much?

I'm trying to compensate for the CUC to avoid algae and dinos by keeping the lights low, and doing frequent blackouts, but obviously, I'd rather have the lights on.

What should I do first?

When was the last time you harvested from your algae scrubber? It may be out-competing the tank for the nitrates.

About 5 days ago, I tested (Hanna) to find my PO4 at 0.08 and my NO3 at ZERO. I looked at my scrubber first and found it to be packed with algae; it was consuming all of the nitrates.

I harvested about 2/3 of the algae in the scrubber and reduced my light intensity by 5%.

Today, PO4 steady at .08 and NO3 has increased to 2.4.

 

[lmfbs]

I was really, focused to distraction, on the ATS failing to thrive. I wonder if anyone will suggest "keeping your hands out of the tank" as the best way forward? I hope you find a solution. Pulling hair algae is not very rewarding, but if the CUC keeps dying you have to be the apex GHA predator. GL

I try very hard to only put my hands in the tank during WCs, changing filter socks or feeding - I definitely grew up in the 'keep your hands out of the tank' school of thought.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I am responding to exactly what you said and directly challenging it as abstract, unfalsifiable information and advice that you won't and can't support.

You said: "Dinoflagellate mats can proliferate across a range of environmental conditions, including systems characterised by elevated concentrations of dissolved organic matter as well as those in which nitrogen or phosphate availability has become limiting, the trick to avoiding them is finding a balance."

The first part covers all reef tanks.
The second part tells the OP to find balance.
Your words. All of them.

No metric, no target, no actionable advice. Five posts of reframing later you want to litigate whether balance is singular or plural and that you didn't say exactly what you said. The deflections never end.

The irony is that in trying to avoid the question you confirmed there is no point, no target, and no threshold. You gave the OP a word, not an answer.

Attempting to pin blame on me for long threads is a direct burden shift and exactly opposite of the truth. People engage your claims, you reframe, they chase the reframe, the thread follows. That is the derail. It happens every time you are confronted and it only ends in two ways. The questioner exhausts from chasing deflections, or you drag it the thread into exhaustion with reframes until it dies. Either way the original claim goes unanswered. That is not discussion.

The record speaks for itself and it has become a recognized pattern. At this point you are a disservice to the OP and to anyone doing actual work in this thread.

It depends

In the meantime, please don’t let my one comment prevent you from offering the OP whatever guidance you think is appropriate.

 

[lmfbs]

Alright, I dosed some nitrate and over 12+ hrs am now sitting at 1.8 according to the hanna HR tester.

I've never dosed nitrate before, and will be increasing feeding also. Any tips on dosing/feeding/testing to make sure I'm not going too high too quick? I've also increase the photoperiod from 7hrs including ramp up to 10hrs, so we'll see how things go.

 

[KrisReef]

Observe and report back how the tank responds.

 

[strich]

I'm reluctant to take the filter socks out right now because the fish often rip off bits of algae which then float around, and I'd prefer them not stuck in my filter socks.

I really think you need to re-evaluate how you look at your tank, because this statement is counter productive to the key advice given here and is also probably why you're in this situation in the first place. It's okay to let this stuff float around! If you do everything right your tank should actually go into a algae bloom and look dirty. You don't want to necessarily be exporting it all via the socks and letting the Dino's continue to thrive.

Take a page out of the book of Frozen - let it go!

 

[lmfbs]

I really think you need to re-evaluate how you look at your tank, because this statement is counter productive to the key advice given here and is also probably why you're in this situation in the first place. It's okay to let this stuff float around! If you do everything right your tank should actually go into a algae bloom and look dirty. You don't want to necessarily be exporting it all via the socks and letting the Dino's continue to thrive.

Take a page out of the book of Frozen - let it go!

Letting clumps of algae float around blocks my return pump. If we were talking about little bits, sure. Sometimes, we're talking about clumps the size of a coin, and they get caught in pumps and block pipes.

For the record, I'm less concerned right now about how the tank looks and am much more concerned about function - but I'm not willing to ruin a $500 return pump when it's preventable.

 

[strich]

Letting clumps of algae float around blocks my return pump. If we were talking about little bits, sure. Sometimes, we're talking about clumps the size of a coin, and they get caught in pumps and block pipes.

For the record, I'm less concerned right now about how the tank looks and am much more concerned about function - but I'm not willing to ruin a $500 return pump when it's preventable.

Indeed you're right. When I said 'let it go,' I mostly meant letting the algae establish and avoiding things like fine micron filter socks that strip out the micro-biology your tank desperately needs right now.
You might want to try swapping your filter socks for a filter cup with some coarse filter floss. That will catch the big pump-killing clumps, but it won't strip the water column as aggressively as a sock, giving your beneficial bacteria and pods a better chance to outcompete the dinos.

 

[lmfbs]

Indeed you're right. When I said 'let it go,' I mostly meant letting the algae establish and avoiding things like fine micron filter socks that strip out the micro-biology your tank desperately needs right now.
You might want to try swapping your filter socks for a filter cup with some coarse filter floss. That will catch the big pump-killing clumps, but it won't strip the water column as aggressively as a sock, giving your beneficial bacteria and pods a better chance to outcompete the dinos.

That's a great suggestion, thanks! I've got a 3D printer and a parter who I'm sure can whip something up for me

 

[lmfbs]

Some pics of the tank just now - lights have just turned on

Excuse the parts where the sand has moved, the fairy wrasse does that every day.

 

[strich]

I'd love to see your sump too actually - my 130.4 doesn't have filter socks at all. Curious how you've configured it!

 

[lmfbs]

I'd love to see your sump too actually - my 130.4 doesn't have filter socks at all. Curious how you've configured it!

 

[Subsea]

Alright, I dosed some nitrate and over 12+ hrs am now sitting at 1.8 according to the hanna HR tester.

I've never dosed nitrate before, and will be increasing feeding also. Any tips on dosing/feeding/testing to make sure I'm not going too high too quick? I've also increase the photoperiod from 7hrs including ramp up to 10hrs, so we'll see how things go.

What nitrogen compound did you dose?

I use clear ammonia.

 

[lmfbs]

What nitrogen compound did you dose?

I use clear ammonia.

This stuff, because it's what I have. It's pretty much full and even though I'd prefer to dose ammonia, I don't want to waste this stuff!

 

[Subsea]

This stuff, because it's what I have. It's pretty much full and even though I'd prefer to dose ammonia, I don't want to waste this stuff!

I don’t see the chemical composition. Is it sodium or calcium nitrate?

I see much benefit from calcium nitrate. The reason I dose ammonia is economics.

 

[lmfbs]

I don’t see the chemical composition. Is it sodium or calcium nitrate?

I see much benefit from calcium nitrate. The reason I dose ammonia is economics.

It very suspiciously says the ingredients are 'water, nitrogen compounds, organic nitrogen, potassium, micronutrients, stabilizers'