0 nitrate, high(ish) phosphate, GHA, CUC problems

[sixty_reefer]

You said dinos occur in high organic systems and in nitrogen or phosphorus limited systems. That covers all tanks. Restating those variables doesn't offer clarity or make anything obvious. I asked what that balance point was.

What condition prevents dinos? How does one measure and change the "balance" of the system to what target?

The original statement still covers all outcomes and explains none of them. Advising someone to find balance between variables you just said produce dinos at both extremes and every point in between is not advice, an explanation or obvious.

You just restated what you said and called it clarification without answering the questions. That is circular.

Your opinion is duly noted and can now be left to stand on its own merits.

Just to clarify. I never said dinoflagellates only occur under those conditions, dinoflagellates are present in most aquariums, i was referring to the conditions associated with nuisance mat formation and dominance not simple presence. Those are not the same thing.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Your opinion is duly noted and can now be left to stand on its own merits.

Just to clarify. I never said dinoflagellates only occur under those conditions, dinoflagellates are present in most aquariums, i was referring to the conditions associated with nuisance mat formation and dominance not simple presence. Those are not the same thing.

I did not offer an opinion, I asked you direct questions regarding your statement that covers all conditions and therefore explains nothing, which was presented as both insight and advice, but contained neither.

Nothing has changed. What is the balance point, how is it measured, and what is the target?

Those questions have not been answered through two reframes. You are not providing clarity, you are carefully reframing to avoid answering questions you can't answer without exposing the original statement as science sounding abstraction with nothing behind it. Different thread, same pattern.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I did not offer an opinion, I asked you direct questions regarding your statement that covers all conditions and therefore explains nothing, which was presented as both insight and advice, but contained neither.

Nothing has changed. What is the balance point, how is it measured, and what is the target?

Those questions have not been answered through two reframes. You are not providing clarity, you are carefully reframing to avoid answering questions you can't answer without exposing the original statement as science sounding abstraction with nothing behind it. Different thread, same pattern.

At this point, I feel like I’ve accidentally acquired a graduate student.

 

[BeanAnimal]

At this point, I feel like I’ve accidentally acquired a graduate student.

Those who can't teach mock and deflect when put on the spot.

Your unfalsifiable statement and meaningless advice to the OP are still there behind all the deflections and smugness. Mocking me does not clarify the science word salad.

So I will ask you again to answer the very basic questions about your statement.

What is the balance point, how is it measured, and what is the target?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Your ATS isn't working IMO. As subsea said increase light or duration, or both.

I would tend to agree here. I am not a huge ATS fan anymore, but the OP's is not doing much beneficial and needs to be optimized if they want it to outcompete the nuisance algae in the the tank.

The issue here is that I am not sure it should even be online right now. It does not appear to be helping anything.

OP, sorry if I missed, but how old is the tank and how long as the ATS been online?

 

[Subsea]

My disagreement is aquariums will never be sterile, just the dust in typical homes produce nutrients. This was unfed and started with only salt and 0 TDS water; it was quickly overrun with algae.



What other organisms?

Ornamental & utilitarian macro algae amongst other things.

It’s amazing what the air in a room adds to a marine tank: N2, Carbon in the form of CO2 and oxygen. Add photosynthesis and alkalinity becomes glucose. Natures way to carbon dose.

My first job out of the Texas marine academy was development engineer at a 300MG power plant. As a lab technician while measuring boiler water chemistry, I watched pH drop immediately when exposed to air.

 

[Subsea]

I would tend to agree here. I am not a huge ATS fan anymore, but the OP's is not doing much beneficial and needs to be optimized if they want it to outcompete the nuisance algae in the the tank.

The issue here is that I am not sure it should even be online right now. It does not appear to be helping anything.

OP, sorry if I missed, but how old is the tank and how long as the ATS been online?

I perused OP threads. Tank is 2 years mature.

I would discontinue ATS

 

[BeanAnimal]

If this were my tank:

I would feed the fish more and take the filter socks offline. They are not serving any useful purpose toward the goal.

I would also take the ATS offline. The screen is basically barren, with only a streak of slime and GHA. It is not functioning as meaningful phosphate export, and what little it is doing is consuming some nitrogen. So it is working against raising nitrates.

I would manage phosphate directly and slowly with GFO in the short term.

So less filtration overall, more food and direct phosphate attack and manual GHA removal.

We don't know the species of dino's but a UV is arguably a good thing to keep on hand. It may or may not help here.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would discontinue ATS

Exactly. It is counter productive here.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Those who can't teach mock and deflect when put on the spot.

Your unfalsifiable statement and meaningless advice to the OP are still there behind all the deflections and smugness. Mocking me does not clarify the science word salad.

So I will ask you again to answer the very basic questions about your statement.

What is the balance point, how is it measured, and what is the target?

Well, nitrate and phosphate are typically measured with nitrate and phosphate test kits, if that’s the part you’re struggling with.

 

[Subsea]

If this were my tank:

I would feed the fish more and take the filter socks offline. They are not serving any useful purpose toward the goal.

I would also take the ATS offline. The screen is basically barren, with only a streak of slime and GHA. It is not functioning as meaningful phosphate export, and what little it is doing is consuming some nitrogen. So it is working against raising nitrates.

I would manage phosphate directly and slowly with GFO in the short term.

So less filtration overall, more food and direct phosphate attack and manual GHA removal.

We don't know the species of dino's but a UV is arguably a good thing to keep on hand. It may or may not help here.

Kudos to this complete response to OP sceanario.

@lmfbs
Instead of a focus on inorganic nutrients and CUC, consider DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) as the fuel for the Dinoflagellets and Cryptic Sponges as the remedial process for removing nutrient source for the undesirable/opportunistic algae’s & bacterial slimes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Well, nitrate and phosphate are typically measured with nitrate and phosphate test kits, if that’s the part you’re struggling with.

More mocking and reframing.

You said dinos occur across all nutrient conditions and need to be controlled through balance.

The questions are simple. What is "balance"? What is the target, and how does one get there?

Test kits measure whatever you point them at. That is not an answer, it is a deflection.

Same pattern, different thread. A unfalsifiable or abstract claim is made, direct questions are asked, and the responses become a moving target of deflections, reframing and mockery instead of meaningful answers.

 

[lmfbs]

I would tend to agree here. I am not a huge ATS fan anymore, but the OP's is not doing much beneficial and needs to be optimized if they want it to outcompete the nuisance algae in the the tank.

The issue here is that I am not sure it should even be online right now. It does not appear to be helping anything.

OP, sorry if I missed, but how old is the tank and how long as the ATS been online?

The tank has been running for 3 years, the ats for maybe 3 months? Possibly a little longer.

It's definitely not running as well as it should be but I haven't taken the time to troubleshoot to get it working properly. I think the biggest thing is it's just running on the general light from the sump and doesn't have a dedicated light. I've got a proper light for it so I'll try that first

 

[Fish Fan]

I am not a huge ATS fan anymore

How come?

 

[sixty_reefer]

More mocking and reframing.

You said dinos occur across all nutrient conditions and need to be controlled through balance.

The questions are simple. What is "balance"? What is the target, and how does one get there?

Test kits measure whatever you point them at. That is not an answer, it is a deflection.

Same pattern, different thread. A unfalsifiable or abstract claim is made, direct questions are asked, and the responses become a moving target of deflections, reframing and mockery instead of meaningful answers.

I did not say dinoflagellates occur across all nutrient conditions.

I said they can proliferate under a range of conditions, including systems with elevated dissolved organics and systems where nitrogen or phosphorus becomes limiting.

Those are different statements.

Likewise, I did not claim there is a single balance point, target value or universal threshold that controls dinoflagellates. That appears to be your interpretation of my comment rather than something I actually wrote.

If you’re going to challenge my position, it would probably help to challenge the position I actually stated.

You really need to stop paraphrasing my comments and start responding to what I actually say. It would definitely make these discussions considerably shorter.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The tank has been running for 3 years, the ats for maybe 3 months? Possibly a little longer.

It's definitely not running as well as it should be but I haven't taken the time to troubleshoot to get it working properly. I think the biggest thing is it's just running on the general light from the sump and doesn't have a dedicated light. I've got a proper light for it so I'll try that first

Yes, it needs a rather high intensity dedicated light, but if it works "better" it is still working against you.

To remove phosphate, and to compete with in tank nuisance algae (which i am not convinced it does) it also has to remove nitrate. The opposite if what you want right now.

I would concentrate on lowering the phosphate gently using GFO and feeding the fish more without the ATS and filter socks interfering. Get the nitrate up naturally and manually target the phosphate. The ATS, carbon dosing, and other options don't fit your issue right now.

 

[CHSUB]

Ornamental & utilitarian macro algae amongst other things

I would probably agree that dinoflagellate are hardier and have greater survival abilities than macro algae. However, in a “fight” against dinoflagellates I’ve never seen anybody recommend their use.
I’m seeking organisms that are common in immature reef aquariums that suddenly spring to life that are otherwise starved?

 

[KrisReef]

The tank has been running for 3 years, the ats for maybe 3 months? Possibly a little longer.

It's definitely not running as well as it should be but I haven't taken the time to troubleshoot to get it working properly. I think the biggest thing is it's just running on the general light from the sump and doesn't have a dedicated light. I've got a proper light for it so I'll try that first

Any tests for iron levels, or other stuff that helps plants grow? ICP would be interesting, with regard to the failure of your ATS!

Hope the situation right itself, maybe time for a water change to replace potential elemental shortages?

 

[lmfbs]

Yes, it needs a rather high intensity dedicated light, but if it works "better" it is still working against you.

To remove phosphate, and to compete with in tank nuisance algae (which i am not convinced it does) it also has to remove nitrate. The opposite if what you want right now.

I would concentrate on lowering the phosphate gently using GFO and feeding the fish more without the ATS and filter socks interfering. Get the nitrate up naturally and manually target the phosphate. The ATS, carbon dosing, and other options don't fit your issue right now.

Alright - this is helpful actionable stuff. I'll take the ATS offline, increase feeding and the lighting cycle. I'm reluctant to take the filter socks out right now because the fish often rip off bits of algae which then float around, and I'd prefer them not stuck in my filter socks.

I'll have to order some GFO (I've never run it before) but I do have phosguard, worth popping some of that in, in the meantime?

Any tests for iron levels, or other stuff that helps plants grow? ICP would be interesting, with regard to the failure of your ATS!

Hope the situation right itself, maybe time for a water change to replace potential elemental shortages?

I've been doing weekly 20% water changes while manually pulling out the GHA for a few months now, and before that I was doing 8% a week with the automated water changing, so I doubt that's a major factor. I think the reason the ATS isn't working is lighting - it's lit overhead with what's essentially an LED strip. I haven't bothered setting up the dedicated light because I figured I didn't have enough nitrates to grow more algae anyway.

I can get an ICP. The only ones available are the aquaforest ICP-2, and generally I've heard from people here they take about a month to 6 weeks, which is why I've never bothered.

What do we think about running carbon or UV?

 

[KrisReef]

Alright - this is helpful actionable stuff. I'll take the ATS offline, increase feeding and the lighting cycle. I'm reluctant to take the filter socks out right now because the fish often rip off bits of algae which then float around, and I'd prefer them not stuck in my filter socks.

I'll have to order some GFO (I've never run it before) but I do have phosguard, worth popping some of that in, in the meantime?



I've been doing weekly 20% water changes while manually pulling out the GHA for a few months now, and before that I was doing 8% a week with the automated water changing, so I doubt that's a major factor. I think the reason the ATS isn't working is lighting - it's lit overhead with what's essentially an LED strip. I haven't bothered setting up the dedicated light because I figured I didn't have enough nitrates to grow more algae anyway.

I can get an ICP. The only ones available are the aquaforest ICP-2, and generally I've heard from people here they take about a month to 6 weeks, which is why I've never bothered.

What do we think about running carbon or UV?

If you are doing water changes, then I would expect that your trace element levels are ok, still iron can be limiting in growing marine algae. Based upon the GHA growth, probably not as big an issue as the light, with regard to the ATS performance.

UV might help with what is present and growing in the system, I don't believe carbon will help or hurt in this fight.