I meant 4 years ago, haha (date is on the pic)
230 gallon in-wall, room divider, reef build
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MarsRover
Well-Known Member
It looks fine at first glance. I’ll try and pop it into a simulation later this week. I’ll need the dimensions of your glass too (thickness, tank dims, metal bracing around the tank size etc...)
Thanks everyone for your support. I am probably the farthest thing from being a latigious person....but, this is one of those times were my principles on this, and my financial situation because of this, are forcing me to take this journey to make things right and warn the public so others, who don’t have the knowledge to analyze these things themselves, aren’t hurt by this sort of negligence.
The tank is 77x30x30 with 3/4" starphire all the way around. The tank has the stainless bracing around the top and bottom with two cross braces. Let me know of you need more info
Skep18
Valuable Member
OP
OP
MarsRover
Well-Known Member
Hey folks,
Just to update you all: small claims court next week Thursday the 18th.
I’ll post a big update after, including that review of Acrylic and Glass Exhibits (AGE) and the fish gallery in the vendor/manufacturer forum.
Wish me luck!
Just to update you all: small claims court next week Thursday the 18th.
I’ll post a big update after, including that review of Acrylic and Glass Exhibits (AGE) and the fish gallery in the vendor/manufacturer forum.
Wish me luck!
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Skep18
Valuable Member
Oh snap! Props for going through with it. And I'm very surprised a vendor didn't offer a replacement or something when presented with a subpoena!
mrpizzaface
Well-Known Member
Good luck.
OP
OP
MarsRover
Well-Known Member
So got a call from fedex yesterday. Looks like the owner/president of Acrylic and Glass Exhibits (AGE) and the fish gallery, Roger, sent me something that is requiring me to go sign for it at fedex. No idea what it could be. Picking it up later today. Hopefully it’s just a check .......@acesq
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reef_ranch
Well-Known Member
Could be a check, but most likely its a request for a continuance or a motion to transfer venue or some other filing in the small claims case.
OP
OP
MarsRover
Well-Known Member
Okay heres what it was: Request for court order and answer - Request for the court to dismiss the case based on inappropriate venue.
First of all, yes, in LA using small claims for an out of state defendant isn't the appropriate way, however, it is appreciably cheaper (like $300 cheaper for the losing party) than the appropriate venue and I talked to many people at the court house and they said if the defendant doesn't make a stink about it, they ARE allowed to rule over the case.
Okay, more importantly: IF AGE had been legally operating in California, they would have whats called a third-party agent for service of process registered with the Secretary of State of Cal. and that agent would have to be based in California. The reason why this is the law: So that californian's can take out of state companies to small claims court. If AGE had been legally operating in california, i would more easily be able to resolve this case by using small claims. Here i was being nice thinking we could just resolve it for cheaper to the loser of the case, but nope. Apparently operating illegally in California pays off in this situation.
Secondly: In this filing, the owner of AGE claims: "Request case dismissal. Case Service is defective. Correct Defendant is a corporation located out of state. Defendant (either Roger Degregori or Acrylic & Glass Exhibits, Inc) have no business, location, property, operations based in Ca. - nothing, in the state of california." You can see it for yourself in the attached scan of the documents. They Also included in the filing the purchase agreement (showing delivery date and fee for "white glove" delivery service....", and the certificates of "no record" from the secretary of state of california and franchise tax board indicating that they are not registered to operate here in california.
Guess they ignored the part about nexus in the California Sales and Use Tax law (Chapter 3, article 1, Section 6203 c 2) that i sent them (attached) indicating: "
"Retailer engaged in business in this state" as used in this section and Section 6202 means any retailer that has substantial nexus with this state.... whom federal law permits this state to impose a use tax collection duty. "Retailer engaged in business in this state" specifically includes, but is not limited to....
Any retailer having any representative, agent, salesperson, canvasser, independent contractor, or solicitor operating in this state under the authority of the retailer or its subsidiary for the purpose of selling, delivering, installing, assembling, or the taking of orders for any tangible personal property."
Roger Degregori, president and owner of AGE/Fish Gallery, PERSONALLY came to my home to deliver tank and stand, installed the stand and tank in its location into my home, requiring him to assemble the tank atop the stand.
I gotta figure out what to do next here. This filing seems to further prove they operated in california while skirting the laws of california. They openly prove they delivered & therefore have nexus in california as a company (with the copy of the purchase agreement showing delivery is a part of the cost paid), they openly prove they are out of state and not registered with Cal SOS or franchise tax board. And this all WOULD be allowed in Small claims IF they had followed cal law for operating here.... ugh @acesq
First of all, yes, in LA using small claims for an out of state defendant isn't the appropriate way, however, it is appreciably cheaper (like $300 cheaper for the losing party) than the appropriate venue and I talked to many people at the court house and they said if the defendant doesn't make a stink about it, they ARE allowed to rule over the case.
Okay, more importantly: IF AGE had been legally operating in California, they would have whats called a third-party agent for service of process registered with the Secretary of State of Cal. and that agent would have to be based in California. The reason why this is the law: So that californian's can take out of state companies to small claims court. If AGE had been legally operating in california, i would more easily be able to resolve this case by using small claims. Here i was being nice thinking we could just resolve it for cheaper to the loser of the case, but nope. Apparently operating illegally in California pays off in this situation.
Secondly: In this filing, the owner of AGE claims: "Request case dismissal. Case Service is defective. Correct Defendant is a corporation located out of state. Defendant (either Roger Degregori or Acrylic & Glass Exhibits, Inc) have no business, location, property, operations based in Ca. - nothing, in the state of california." You can see it for yourself in the attached scan of the documents. They Also included in the filing the purchase agreement (showing delivery date and fee for "white glove" delivery service....", and the certificates of "no record" from the secretary of state of california and franchise tax board indicating that they are not registered to operate here in california.
Guess they ignored the part about nexus in the California Sales and Use Tax law (Chapter 3, article 1, Section 6203 c 2) that i sent them (attached) indicating: "
"Retailer engaged in business in this state" as used in this section and Section 6202 means any retailer that has substantial nexus with this state.... whom federal law permits this state to impose a use tax collection duty. "Retailer engaged in business in this state" specifically includes, but is not limited to....
Any retailer having any representative, agent, salesperson, canvasser, independent contractor, or solicitor operating in this state under the authority of the retailer or its subsidiary for the purpose of selling, delivering, installing, assembling, or the taking of orders for any tangible personal property."
Roger Degregori, president and owner of AGE/Fish Gallery, PERSONALLY came to my home to deliver tank and stand, installed the stand and tank in its location into my home, requiring him to assemble the tank atop the stand.
I gotta figure out what to do next here. This filing seems to further prove they operated in california while skirting the laws of california. They openly prove they delivered & therefore have nexus in california as a company (with the copy of the purchase agreement showing delivery is a part of the cost paid), they openly prove they are out of state and not registered with Cal SOS or franchise tax board. And this all WOULD be allowed in Small claims IF they had followed cal law for operating here.... ugh @acesq
Erica-Renee
Valuable Member
Not sure how i found this thread . It just popped up. I read thru it and the post the first post pushes to.. Did you ever give them a Chance to make it right. I mean word for word
Since they Delivered it and installed it. Did they ever Offer to come to your house and Fix or exchange this stand ? If so what was the outcome.
YOUR Whole case rides on this one Question..
I am a home remodeling contractor , Speaking to my Lawyers and others who do the same as i do for a living have always avoided litigation with this one thing. Over the years there have been issues or disagreements. I ALWAYS Go and make it right if I am at fault. Those cases that went before a Judge. The one Question that makes or breaks the case. 1. Did the seller offer in good faith and follow thru to make it right . 2. Did the Client or consumer in good faith allow the Seller Contractor or builder to make it right..
If you cant say Yes you give them access to the tank to make it right . In my state you LOOSE.
If they tried and Failed or did not offer or try at all YOU WIN..
This is VERY Straight forward . These guys are Contracted Builders for you. NOT Manufacturers as they build something and install it into your home. They did not sell you a retail product..
I DO Hope you get this Resolved and i see your side of the Argument that if they had built it right to begin with it would not fail.If that was the case for warranty , every car that needs repaired under there warranty period would have to be replaced . Every new home that ends up with a roof leak or squeeky door .. This issues are the same as your stand.. They are BUILT Products and assembled improperly ..
Please note that this is NOT Taking sides its just a different opinion. I would suggest if you have not already ask them to reboot the Process and give them a Chance to make it right. If they refuse make a EXAMPLE of them...
Good Luck.....
Since they Delivered it and installed it. Did they ever Offer to come to your house and Fix or exchange this stand ? If so what was the outcome.
YOUR Whole case rides on this one Question..
I am a home remodeling contractor , Speaking to my Lawyers and others who do the same as i do for a living have always avoided litigation with this one thing. Over the years there have been issues or disagreements. I ALWAYS Go and make it right if I am at fault. Those cases that went before a Judge. The one Question that makes or breaks the case. 1. Did the seller offer in good faith and follow thru to make it right . 2. Did the Client or consumer in good faith allow the Seller Contractor or builder to make it right..
If you cant say Yes you give them access to the tank to make it right . In my state you LOOSE.
If they tried and Failed or did not offer or try at all YOU WIN..
This is VERY Straight forward . These guys are Contracted Builders for you. NOT Manufacturers as they build something and install it into your home. They did not sell you a retail product..
I DO Hope you get this Resolved and i see your side of the Argument that if they had built it right to begin with it would not fail.If that was the case for warranty , every car that needs repaired under there warranty period would have to be replaced . Every new home that ends up with a roof leak or squeeky door .. This issues are the same as your stand.. They are BUILT Products and assembled improperly ..
Please note that this is NOT Taking sides its just a different opinion. I would suggest if you have not already ask them to reboot the Process and give them a Chance to make it right. If they refuse make a EXAMPLE of them...
Good Luck.....
OP
OP
MarsRover
Well-Known Member
I did give them a chance to make it right. Long story short, I have contemporaneous notes from the long conversation i had with the owner of the company and here is what he offered:
1. I personally design a fix for the stand, as an additional leg, and he will send me the part so that I personally can install it myself (drilling, tapping, or welding required).
2. HE sends me a new stand that i have to go pick up from the airport, bring home, and find a way to install. I paid for their "white glove" delivery service so i didn't have to do this during their initial install.
He made it clear this was all he was willing to offer and this does not fix the problem.
3. He refuses to admit that having the tank only supported on its two short edges (with air under the middle of the entire tank) stresses the joints of the tank beyond what was intended, and THUS VOIDS THEIR WARRANTY by their warranty's language: http://www.acrylicandglassexhibits.com/About-Us
As an engineer, pretty much any engineer in fact, can tell you that the joints in the tank, and the glass itself, is undergoing shear stresses due to only being simply supported (think holding a pencil by resting the eraser on the forefinger of one hand, and the lead on the forefinger on the other hand with only air in between).
You are a contractor who is licensed through the municipalities you operate within. You have to follow codes etc... and are held liable for injuries due to your failures to follow those codes etc...
This is guy is none of those things. He offers a service and a product. Please search this thread for "warranty" and read it. There are implied warranties with things like this, and his company had an explicit warranty of 3 years. Additionally, he himself admitted they have ZERO engineers or engineering experience. Just a "6th sense" about these things and so thats how he knows how to build these stands strong enough. Not good enough when you're talking thousands of pounds of electrically conductive water and rock, not to mention glass and thousands of dollars of animals, in a seismically active area. This thing can't even stand under its own weight statically.....
Lastly, something you said is inaccurate:
False. This was not a built product assembled improperly. This is not an issue of metal defect. This is not an issue of material defect. This is an issue of them not designing it properly (because they have no formal technical knowledge to help them design it properly). It would be like you going to build a house. Code and structural engineering calls for a 4"x6" lintel over an opening and you only did a 2"x4". Their product and services are custom designed tanks. They are manufacturers. They design, cut, weld, build, all themselves to their own specs....
got these images from their sales person: Chris brenes (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbrenes)
This is apparently how they test their stands are strong enough.....
Okay back to my stuff:
Regarding my previous post, and the request to dismiss by Mr. Degregori, claiming they have no operations in California... i have proof the guy flew to my house with his employee to install the tank...so when he says "have no business, location, property, operations based in Ca. - nothing, in the state of california" Thats not true...sounds like perjury to me:
Here is Degregori's online profile and the fish gallery logo:
Here he is standing in my house putting the stand in place (with his employee) while wearing his gray "fish gallery" logo'd sweater thing:
again degregori at my house with his employee both wearing fish gallery logo'd shirts.
again degregori carting in the stand at my house wearing his fish gallery logo'd shirt
so clearly "nothing in california" isn't true...
Going to court today to file a response. This company is untruthful and is doing whatever it can to not make things right. Starting with not operating in california (with nexus) legally, then moving on to telling me to take a hike when i try to give them the chance to make it right over several emails and phones calls, and now continuing evasion of adjudication by a court by being untruthful about their actions here in california.
not cool.
Erica-Renee
Valuable Member
I did give them a chance to make it right. Long story short, I have contemporaneous notes from the long conversation i had with the owner of the company and here is what he offered:
1. I personally design a fix for the stand, as an additional leg, and he will send me the part so that I personally can install it myself (drilling, tapping, or welding required).
2. HE sends me a new stand that i have to go pick up from the airport, bring home, and find a way to install. I paid for their "white glove" delivery service so i didn't have to do this during their initial install.
He made it clear this was all he was willing to offer and this does not fix the problem.
3. He refuses to admit that having the tank only supported on its two short edges (with air under the middle of the entire tank) stresses the joints of the tank beyond what was intended, and THUS VOIDS THEIR WARRANTY by their warranty's language: http://www.acrylicandglassexhibits.com/About-Us
As an engineer, pretty much any engineer in fact, can tell you that the joints in the tank, and the glass itself, is undergoing shear stresses due to only being simply supported (think holding a pencil by resting the eraser on the forefinger of one hand, and the lead on the forefinger on the other hand with only air in between).
You are a contractor who is licensed through the municipalities you operate within. You have to follow codes etc... and are held liable for injuries due to your failures to follow those codes etc...
This is guy is none of those things. He offers a service and a product. Please search this thread for "warranty" and read it. There are implied warranties with things like this, and his company had an explicit warranty of 3 years. Additionally, he himself admitted they have ZERO engineers or engineering experience. Just a "6th sense" about these things and so thats how he knows how to build these stands strong enough. Not good enough when you're talking thousands of pounds of electrically conductive water and rock, not to mention glass and thousands of dollars of animals, in a seismically active area. This thing can't even stand under its own weight statically.....
Lastly, something you said is inaccurate: False. This was not a built product assembled improperly. This is not an issue of metal defect. This is not an issue of material defect. This is an issue of them not designing it properly (because they have no formal technical knowledge to help them design it properly). It would be like you going to build a house. Code and structural engineering calls for a 4"x6" lintel over an opening and you only did a 2"x4". Their product and services are custom designed tanks. They are manufacturers. They design, cut, weld, build, all themselves to their own specs....
got these images from their sales person: Chris brenes (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbrenes)
This is apparently how they test their stands are strong enough.....
Okay back to my stuff:
Regarding my previous post, and the request to dismiss by Mr. Degregori, claiming they have no operations in California... i have proof the guy flew to my house with his employee to install the tank...so when he says "have no business, location, property, operations based in Ca. - nothing, in the state of california" Thats not true...sounds like perjury to me:
Here is Degregori's online profile and the fish gallery logo:
Here he is standing in my house putting the stand in place (with his employee) while wearing his gray "fish gallery" logo'd sweater thing:
again degregori at my house with his employee both wearing fish gallery logo'd shirts.
again degregori carting in the stand at my house wearing his fish gallery logo'd shirt
so clearly "nothing in california" isn't true...
Going to court today to file a response. This company is untruthful and is doing whatever it can to not make things right. Starting with not operating in california (with nexus) legally, then moving on to telling me to take a hike when i try to give them the chance to make it right over several emails and phones calls, and now continuing evasion of adjudication by a court by being untruthful about their actions here in california.
not cool.
Yeah then he is totally at fault..
Sending you the part is NOT Him solving the issue.Bringing what he needs to your house and Fixing it would show he is owning his mistake and making it right. With my Business We Give honest price and Do exactly what we say. If there is a Issue its Our Issue and we solve it . Not ask the Customer to help solve it.
Good Luck .
OP
OP
MarsRover
Well-Known Member
Update:
Went and filed my response with the court house to Degregori’s motion to dismiss. The lady at the counter tells me she has NO record of receiving his motion.
Maybe it was just a bluff in hope that I’d see it and give up?
Dirty dirty dirty....
Went and filed my response with the court house to Degregori’s motion to dismiss. The lady at the counter tells me she has NO record of receiving his motion.
Maybe it was just a bluff in hope that I’d see it and give up?
Dirty dirty dirty....
OP
OP
MarsRover
Well-Known Member
Welp, small claims tomorrow.
Really not looking forward to this as I am not a litigious person....but I really see no other choice other than eating this loss and problem myself, which I just can’t afford on a NASA salary...oh well
Wish me luck.
Will update tomorrow
Really not looking forward to this as I am not a litigious person....but I really see no other choice other than eating this loss and problem myself, which I just can’t afford on a NASA salary...oh well
Wish me luck.
Will update tomorrow
Man what a battle, I'll be waiting around to see what happens. I'm not an engineer and a lot of it went over my head. So I'm going off just common sense and it says that gap isn't ok and this needs to be fixed. I hate when it gets this far, I just wish things could be figured out in other ways. Not blaming you I just wish he would have been more flexible to help his customer out.
mrpizzaface
Well-Known Member
Will be sending good vibes your way tomorrow.
I can only see a positive outcome on your side.
Good luck.
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I didn't read through everything but does the tank have a floating bottom?
OP
OP
MarsRover
Well-Known Member
Thanks folks for support. Waiting for court to open now. Got my demonstration materials in hand to show what happens to a brittle
Material like glass (using rigid foam) when it is loaded and the middle and is supported vs isn’t supported!
Yeah, I spent many emails and phone calls with the owner of the company and it was clear he wasn’t interested in making it right. As I said above, those were the only options he was willing to offer. I kept trying to negotiate with him but he wasn’t interested in hearing me and instead wanted to attack my analysis etc... so my lawyer friend told me to just go get a judge to handle it since he isn’t being reasonable. I hate this too unfortunately
Not sure what you mean by that? The pvc bottom of the tank is NOT touching the wood top deck of the stand in the nominal (non failing) design.
The issue with the tank is that having no center support on the bottom edges of the tank, the steel frame around the tank glass wants to deflect (bend) but the glass doesn’t. Between the two, communicating between the two materials in this tug of war, is the silicone.
Glass is brittle and resists bending....to a point. At that point it catastrophically fails. Silicone also will communicate this tug of war only so much. By virtue of this communication between the dissimilar materials, The silicone is being stressed beyond what the original design intended, causing premature ware and end of life. Eventually the stress on the silicone will cause an adhesion or adhesive failure causing the tank to leak or catastrophically fail.
Hope that helps?
After all this is over, I plan to finish some articles that hopefully R2R will publish. In addition to just strength, many of our tanks are unsafe in tip over. My articles explain to any layperson step by step some of these basic engineering calculations so that they can double check tank builders’ “ideas” before they make their purchases.
Material like glass (using rigid foam) when it is loaded and the middle and is supported vs isn’t supported!
Yeah, I spent many emails and phone calls with the owner of the company and it was clear he wasn’t interested in making it right. As I said above, those were the only options he was willing to offer. I kept trying to negotiate with him but he wasn’t interested in hearing me and instead wanted to attack my analysis etc... so my lawyer friend told me to just go get a judge to handle it since he isn’t being reasonable. I hate this too unfortunately
Not sure what you mean by that? The pvc bottom of the tank is NOT touching the wood top deck of the stand in the nominal (non failing) design.
The issue with the tank is that having no center support on the bottom edges of the tank, the steel frame around the tank glass wants to deflect (bend) but the glass doesn’t. Between the two, communicating between the two materials in this tug of war, is the silicone.
Glass is brittle and resists bending....to a point. At that point it catastrophically fails. Silicone also will communicate this tug of war only so much. By virtue of this communication between the dissimilar materials, The silicone is being stressed beyond what the original design intended, causing premature ware and end of life. Eventually the stress on the silicone will cause an adhesion or adhesive failure causing the tank to leak or catastrophically fail.
Hope that helps?
After all this is over, I plan to finish some articles that hopefully R2R will publish. In addition to just strength, many of our tanks are unsafe in tip over. My articles explain to any layperson step by step some of these basic engineering calculations so that they can double check tank builders’ “ideas” before they make their purchases.
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