A few weeks in, I'm already starting to regret getting a mantis shrimp

[wwarby]

Jay, One of the mantis shrimp owners over at ultimatereef.net whose opinion I value thinks I'll likely run into problems with aiptasia in a nano tank since I can't keep anything in the tank with Oatmeal to keep them under control. He suggested an alternative idea of adding a custom made glass divider in my current tank, to keep Oatmeal separate from fish and the idea has merit. It would mean the water is shared so less water quality issues, but I'm not massively keen primarily because I think it will look ugly.

The RedSea Max Nano is actually 16 gallons I think, although I could potentially go for something a bit larger if necessary. Am I setting myself up to fail, starting a smaller tank for the mantis shrimp as a novice? How bad are these aiptasia anyway? Jay says aiptasia X doesn't work, and the only way he's been able to keep them under control is by bleaching the tank once a year. He keeps his mantis shrimp in a section of his sump with a little window in the cabinet door, so it's quite an unusual setup.

How big is everyone else's mantis shrimp tank? What problems do you run into if you have a smaller tank than mine?

 

[Latte]

Jay, One of the mantis shrimp owners over at ultimatereef.net whose opinion I value thinks I'll likely run into problems with aiptasia in a nano tank since I can't keep anything in the tank with Oatmeal to keep them under control. He suggested an alternative idea of adding a custom made glass divider in my current tank, to keep Oatmeal separate from fish and the idea has merit. It would mean the water is shared so less water quality issues, but I'm not massively keen primarily because I think it will look ugly.

The RedSea Max Nano is actually 16 gallons I think, although I could potentially go for something a bit larger if necessary. Am I setting myself up to fail, starting a smaller tank for the mantis shrimp as a novice? How bad are these aiptasia anyway? Jay says aiptasia X doesn't work, and the only way he's been able to keep them under control is by bleaching the tank once a year. He keeps his mantis shrimp in a section of his sump with a little window in the cabinet door, so it's quite an unusual setup.

How big is everyone else's mantis shrimp tank? What problems do you run into if you have a smaller tank than mine?

I actually have a max nano, so I can help perhaps. It is not the tank I keep my shrimp in, though. It's quite an expensive tank, and a good $300-400 of the cost is in the light, which is a lot more than you need (or want) for a peacock tank. The tank is also likely a little small for a full grown peacock (have a look at https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/ if you haven't already)

Further on the max nano, the auto top off is a joke, it barely works and holds a pittance, you'll want to upgrade to a different system for that. I actually love my max nano, but I don't think it's particularly suitable for a peacock.

I don't understand the comment on aiptasia at all to be honest, I don't see how having the glass divider would prevent it unless you're constantly swapping the mantis and fish between both sides (presumably this is so the fish can eat the aiptasia?). This is obviously not feasible. Also, aiptasia doesn't just appear in the tank, it needs to be added. If Jay is running his mantis tank as a sump in an established system which presumably has aiptasia, that would be the point of addition. Bleaching the tank yearly seems very drastic, but maybe he's got a bad infestation. If it isn't already an issue for you, I'd encourage you to not stress, it will likely stay that way unless you start adding a lot of corals to the tank. Even if it does become an issue, there are ways to deal with it despite the mantis (squirting with kalkwasser, nudibranchs) but the usual fish and peppermints are almost certainly out.

Before you dive into corals and another tank, it sounds costs should be considered more fully. Reefing successfully is generally very expensive, and you'll likely need to make a fair few additions to your system depending on the corals you want to grow. Pairing this with needing a new tank for the mantis and you'd be in for quite a sum. I think it's worth it personally, but seriously consider all the costs you can and do your research, then double it to get a more realistic estimate, and make your decision.

 

[wwarby]

Urgh. I've just realised my gallon to litres conversion never seems quite right. A UK gallon is 1.2 US gallons. Unbelievable. We can't even agree on how much a unit of measure is when we have the same name for it! So my current tank is 240 litres, which is 52 UK gallons which is 63.5 US gallons. My tank is actually bigger than I thought

Right, that bit of nonsense aside, thanks @Latte for your feedback. First on the aiptasia issue, I've asked Jay for clarification. I know he's tried and failed to control his aiptasia with nudibranchs and he said Aiptasia X doesn't work. Jay does tend to have strong opinions that not everyone agrees with, but he is one of the more experienced and respected members of the UK reefing community I think.

Regarding the RedSea Max Nano, aside from the money wasted on the fancy light and the bad auto-topup system, is your principle objection to that tank down to water volume? I've come across Roy's list before although not recently, and I do recall that 100 litres was the recommended size so the Max Nano is only 75% of that. If I need a different auto-topup system then the kitchen counter is an tank impractical base anyway and I'll need to rethink. I popped into an LFS at lunchtime and they agreed the RedSea Max Nano was a little small for the job, suggesting the peninsula version (100 litres) instead. I'd need to find a different place for that in my house but I'm working on an idea for that. Do you think that would work? Otherwise I'll start looking at slightly bigger options.

Cost-wise, yeah - that's why I asked. I spent 6 times as much on my first tank as I initially estimated - mostly because of things I didn't think of or know I needed like the cost of sand and rock, salt, temperature controllers, test kits, UV steriliser, wavemaker, lighting upgrade, refractometer, auto-topup, RO unit, buckets, nets, cleaning tools etc. I figure this time around I know much more about what is actually needed and I already have most of the peripheral bits and bobs, but I will factor in that it will still cost more than I expect. I do also get that as soon as I dip a toe into the coral world I'll be opening up a whole new realm of unexpected expenses. I don't need to do corals straight away but you're right, I should learn and understand what the costs are if that's my ultimate goal.

I take your point about the light being a waste too, but I'm not sure I'd save that much by avoiding it. The light on it's own is £240 compared to the £700 for the whole setup (£800 for the peninsula and another £200 for the cabinet), but most of the cheaper tanks I've looked at also come with other downsides - thin glass, ugly cabinets, cheap plastic lids etc.

I do really appreciate what you're saying and I do need to think carefully before throwing more money at this hobby. My first plan (mantis shrimp is best buds with clown fish) didn't work, and whilst I could (and still might) put more fish in there and try my luck, it does seem like separate tanks are a healthier long term plan. As frustrated and impatient as I'm sure I appear, I am really enjoying this hobby and I'm up for the challenge.

 

[wwarby]

Just heard some rocks moving in the tank and although it's dark I could see Oatmeal's little antennae (of whatever you call them) poking through the rock barricade. I'll leave her tank dark (going out for the evening) but very relieved that she seems to have made it through the molt

 

[Latte]

Urgh. I've just realised my gallon to litres conversion never seems quite right. A UK gallon is 1.2 US gallons. Unbelievable. We can't even agree on how much a unit of measure is when we have the same name for it! So my current tank is 240 litres, which is 52 UK gallons which is 63.5 US gallons. My tank is actually bigger than I thought

Right, that bit of nonsense aside, thanks @Latte for your feedback. First on the aiptasia issue, I've asked Jay for clarification. I know he's tried and failed to control his aiptasia with nudibranchs and he said Aiptasia X doesn't work. Jay does tend to have strong opinions that not everyone agrees with, but he is one of the more experienced and respected members of the UK reefing community I think.

Regarding the RedSea Max Nano, aside from the money wasted on the fancy light and the bad auto-topup system, is your principle objection to that tank down to water volume? I've come across Roy's list before although not recently, and I do recall that 100 litres was the recommended size so the Max Nano is only 75% of that. If I need a different auto-topup system then the kitchen counter is an tank impractical base anyway and I'll need to rethink. I popped into an LFS at lunchtime and they agreed the RedSea Max Nano was a little small for the job, suggesting the peninsula version (100 litres) instead. I'd need to find a different place for that in my house but I'm working on an idea for that. Do you think that would work? Otherwise I'll start looking at slightly bigger options.

Cost-wise, yeah - that's why I asked. I spent 6 times as much on my first tank as I initially estimated - mostly because of things I didn't think of or know I needed like the cost of sand and rock, salt, temperature controllers, test kits, UV steriliser, wavemaker, lighting upgrade, refractometer, auto-topup, RO unit, buckets, nets, cleaning tools etc. I figure this time around I know much more about what is actually needed and I already have most of the peripheral bits and bobs, but I will factor in that it will still cost more than I expect. I do also get that as soon as I dip a toe into the coral world I'll be opening up a whole new realm of unexpected expenses. I don't need to do corals straight away but you're right, I should learn and understand what the costs are if that's my ultimate goal.

I take your point about the light being a waste too, but I'm not sure I'd save that much by avoiding it. The light on it's own is £240 compared to the £700 for the whole setup (£800 for the peninsula and another £200 for the cabinet), but most of the cheaper tanks I've looked at also come with other downsides - thin glass, ugly cabinets, cheap plastic lids etc.

I do really appreciate what you're saying and I do need to think carefully before throwing more money at this hobby. My first plan (mantis shrimp is best buds with clown fish) didn't work, and whilst I could (and still might) put more fish in there and try my luck, it does seem like separate tanks are a healthier long term plan. As frustrated and impatient as I'm sure I appear, I am really enjoying this hobby and I'm up for the challenge.

The Peninsula is cool - I think that's a pretty new offering. That size is better. Yeah, aside from the bad ATO and expensive light my issue is the size which the peninsula fixes. The ATO in the max nano is workable, to clarify, but will require you topping it up from somewhere else every couple days (depending on evaporation rate wherever you are). An alternative is to add an actual glass lid to the tank, at which point the ATO would last a fair while longer, probably more than a week or two. You can also always sell the light, maybe even ask the store if they're interested in separating it from the kit or letting you sell it back to them for store credit. With a glass lid it's feasible for this to be a countertop tank, and if you're running the skimmer, I don't see any real issues gas transfer wise.

 

[wwarby]

Noticed this morning I could see something in Oatmeal's burrow, so took a photo on my phone. It's terrible quality because the tank is nearly pitch black so I've massively increased exposure to see what's going on in there (I didn't use light or flash - this is barely visible to the naked eye).

This is her discarded exoskeleton right? Not a dead mantis shrimp?

 

[wwarby]

The Peninsula is cool - I think that's a pretty new offering. That size is better. Yeah, aside from the bad ATO and expensive light my issue is the size which the peninsula fixes. The ATO in the max nano is workable, to clarify, but will require you topping it up from somewhere else every couple days (depending on evaporation rate wherever you are). An alternative is to add an actual glass lid to the tank, at which point the ATO would last a fair while longer, probably more than a week or two. You can also always sell the light, maybe even ask the store if they're interested in separating it from the kit or letting you sell it back to them for store credit. With a glass lid it's feasible for this to be a countertop tank, and if you're running the skimmer, I don't see any real issues gas transfer wise.

Awesome, thanks @Latte. Yeah I can see refilling the ATO every two days getting tedious. The peninsula isn't the right shape for a kitchen counter - it would come out all the way to the front and look stupid. It's a shame the don't do a 60x45cm version in the other orientation. So basically what I'm weighing up now is replacing my office desk with a smaller one and putting the peninsula tank with cabinet to the side, surrounding myself by fish tanks as I work

With the peninsula + cabinet + ATO + new desk (plus sand, rock, heater etc.) the cost is starting to spiral so I'm trying to slow down and think, which doesn't come naturally for me (I'm very impulsive). I do think that sounds like a workable option for a smaller mantis tank though.

Oh, Jay came back to me on the aiptasia thing: "Mantis are notoriously messy eaters. They will disperse food in the water making the aiptasia spread much faster. In a tank with more water volume and a sump you can filter than out with more aggressive water movement". He also said that he bred nudibranchs for 18 months and that they were very hit and miss with eating the aiptasia and hard to keep alive, even with no predators.

I'm inclined to agree with you that this isn't a persuasive argument for not doing the nano tank. There's no path forward from where I am that doesn't have risks or downsides, and Jay's alternative suggestion of a glass divider certainly has some.

Thanks again for all the advice

 

[Hadla]

Yep, part of her molt

 

[Latte]

surrounding myself by fish tanks as I work

this sounds ideal IMO

The extra nutrients causing more aiptasia definitely makes sense intuitively, but I agree, don't think it really is that persuasive an argument against nano tanks honestly.

I think the glass barrier would look pretty bad to be honest, but that's up to you really.

FWIW not sure if I mentioned here before, but I have added mollies (very cheap, but slow moving fish, generally freshwater but can be easily acclimated to salt) to my mantis tank a few times now.

1. Added a molly randomly, my mantis didn't pay it any attention
2. Added a second molly randomly, my mantis immediately attacked that one, but continued to ignore the other one (and still has)

This led me to think I added the second molly in a way that she associates with food perhaps? Tbh I was impressed she could even tell the difference between them.

3. I added two other mollies after a day of heavy feeding and a few hours after lights out. This was a week ago now and she still has no interest in the mollies other than watching them as they dopily swim less than an inch infront of her at times.

I think there's a reasonable chance you could get away with fish if you add them at the right time, like I have, however my mantis has previously shown signs of being a pacifist (except where ghost shrimps are concerned...).

Pleased to hear Oatmeal's moult went well!

 

[wwarby]

Well, Oatmeal has successfully molted and is back out and about in her tank. She looks healthy and I gave her half a prawn this morning which she snaffled up

I've had the lights off in the tank for a week (actually been sitting in the dark during the working day just to make sure it was super dark in the tank) but now that she's out and about, am I okay to turn the tank lighting back on or should I leave it a little longer?

In other news, I took the plunge and bought the RedSea Max Nano Peninsula tank last night, so I'll be setting that up over the weekend and getting ready to move Oatmeal to a new home (after the tank is properly cycled of course). It's a beautiful tank - can't wait to get started with it

 

[52728299]

Well, Oatmeal has successfully molted and is back out and about in her tank. She looks healthy and I gave her half a prawn this morning which she snaffled up

I've had the lights off in the tank for a week (actually been sitting in the dark during the working day just to make sure it was super dark in the tank) but now that she's out and about, am I okay to turn the tank lighting back on or should I leave it a little longer?

In other news, I took the plunge and bought the RedSea Max Nano Peninsula tank last night, so I'll be setting that up over the weekend and getting ready to move Oatmeal to a new home (after the tank is properly cycled of course). It's a beautiful tank - can't wait to get started with it

I'm impulsive too my roommates were pretty surprised when I brought home my reefer now after also adding 3 qt tanks I think nothing surprises them anymore.

 

[wwarby]

I'm impulsive too my roommates were pretty surprised when I brought home my reefer now after also adding 3 qt tanks I think nothing surprises them anymore.

In my case though it actually was near the register - my LFS has a beautiful RedSea Max Nano set up on the counter, so it's hardly my fault I was tempted

 

[wwarby]

The topic of this thread has morphed quite a bit since I started it, and I'm not on a path to keeping Oatmeal for the long term in a smaller tank focused completely on her. I've started a new member tank thread to track my progress. I'm trying to go a bit slower this time and think more carefully about each decision. Currently looking at different configurations for the PVC burrow and choosing the appropriate substrate before I think about aquascaping on top of it. If anyone has any opinions on those topics I'd be very grateful to hear them. I've posted photos of various possible burrow configurations on the tank thread.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread. Without the encouragement received here I might well have either rehomed Oatmeal or left the hobby by now, and I'm really glad neither of those things happened.

 

[Hadla]

I’m so glad to read this! Mantis shrimp are one of the most fascinating inverts out there! I’m about to move my female peacock into a 55 from the 10 she’s been in for a few months and I can’t wait to see how she rearranged it to her liking! I can see how she’s moved the sand in the 10 and it’s so cool to see where it’s built up higher!

 

[wwarby]

I’m so glad to read this! Mantis shrimp are one of the most fascinating inverts out there! I’m about to move my female peacock into a 55 from the 10 she’s been in for a few months and I can’t wait to see how she rearranged it to her liking! I can see how she’s moved the sand in the 10 and it’s so cool to see where it’s built up higher!

Hah - you're going almost the straight reverse of what I'm doing Oatmeal moved tons of sand around in my tank when she was trying to dig a new burrow but I don't think she ever made quite to her liking. I'm hoping she'll be happier with the 3" wide burrow in her new tank. If I had the space I'd have moved the tank she's in to a different location and bought a bigger tank for the mixed reef, but I'm somewhat space constrained and I'm not quite addicted enough yet to let tanks start replacing the essential furniture in my house

You'll have to post some photos of your new setup when you get her into the big tank!

 

[Hadla]

Haha it’s not new… it was set up for a while for my puffer until it died then sat evaporating til a few weeks ago when I took the rock out and cleaned the sand with the hose and filled back up to run again it wasn’t meant for the mantis at first but she needs it

 

[Mackey]

Pistol shrimps are a lot like Mantis except instead of predatorial vibe, it's got a more "get of my lawn" vibe

 

[Hadla]

Pistol shrimps are a lot like Mantis except instead of predatorial vibe, it's got a more "get of my lawn" vibe

Yeah they’re not as interactive either imo

 

[wwarby]

Pistol shrimps are a lot like Mantis except instead of predatorial vibe, it's got a more "get of my lawn" vibe

A pistol / goby pair are on the shortlist for the bigger tank once Oatmeal is moved to the smaller one. I really enjoy watching them shovelling sand in the LFS.

 

[Latte]

A pistol / goby pair are on the shortlist for the bigger tank once Oatmeal is moved to the smaller one. I really enjoy watching them shovelling sand in the LFS.

Not interactive like Hadla said, but super cool symbiosis IMO.