A question about chromis susceptibility to uronema

[BaghdadBean]

So, this is actually a few questions.

From forum searches, it seems that the likelihood of blue-green and green chromis coming in with uronema is so high that even quarantined fish vendors won’t sell them or won’t guarantee them. From reading more, uronema affects a number of fish, but is most often mentioned with regard to the more ubiquitous green chromis. Is it more or less equal likelihood of occurrence in all chromis? Or does it actually occur most frequently in only specific types of chromis?

If it’s specific to only certain types, does this disease occur most frequently in green and blue-green chromis because of their collection location? Because of rising stressors on the reef? Or because of increasingly crappy handling practices during capture and shipping?

If it’s equally prevalent in all chromis, is it just that we only hear about it the most with green chromis because of the cheapness of blue-green or green chromis making them more popular among new aquarists?

 

[blaxsun]

I've owned green chromis for several years and I've yet to see any cases of uronema (that I'm aware of, anyway). One always mysteriously vanishes every few months, and if they weren't so dirt cheap to replace I might be overly concerned.

I don't know about the collection/handling, but the fish themselves are literally pennies on the dollar - it's the shipping that defines the price. So with such a dirt cheap fish nothing would surprise me...

 

[BaghdadBean]

I've owned green chromis for several years and I've yet to see any cases of uronema (that I'm aware of, anyway). One always mysteriously vanishes every few months, and if they weren't so dirt cheap to replace I might be overly concerned.

I don't know about the collection/handling, but the fish themselves are literally pennies on the dollar - it's the shipping that defines the price. So with such a dirt cheap fish nothing would surprise me...

When I look back on early tanks I had, I usually had horrid luck with chromis, but I always figured it was just interspecies aggression since I never had issues with my other fish. Looking back on it, I think my aquascapes sucked for calming down aggression. I did see some fish with uronema at crappy LFS’s but I never had it in my tanks and didn’t ever hear anybody directly relate it to chromis until reading about it on reef central. Seems to be a lot more emphasized today than a decade or so ago though.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So, this is actually a few questions.

From forum searches, it seems that the likelihood of blue-green and green chromis coming in with uronema is so high that even quarantined fish vendors won’t sell them or won’t guarantee them. From reading more, uronema affects a number of fish, but is most often mentioned with regard to the more ubiquitous green chromis. Is it more or less equal likelihood of occurrence in all chromis? Or does it actually occur most frequently in only specific types of chromis?

If it’s specific to only certain types, does this disease occur most frequently in green and blue-green chromis because of their collection location? Because of rising stressors on the reef? Or because of increasingly crappy handling practices during capture and shipping?

If it’s equally prevalent in all chromis, is it just that we only hear about it the most with green chromis because of the cheapness of blue-green or green chromis making them more popular among new aquarists?

The "big three" when it comes to Uronema infections on newly imported fish are green chromis, yellow coris wrasse and anthias. Other fish certainly can contract it, but it seems those three comprise the bulk of the cases. Things got worse during Covid when the shipping times got longer due to less than optimal flights from overseas. I won't buy green chromis except those from areas other than the Philippines or Indonesia.

You've probably seen it, but here is an article I wrote on this topic some time ago:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[BaghdadBean]

The "big three" when it comes to Uronema infections on newly imported fish are green chromis, yellow coris wrasse and anthias. Other fish certainly can contract it, but it seems those three comprise the bulk of the cases. Things got worse during Covid when the shipping times got longer due to less than optimal flights from overseas. I won't buy green chromis except those from areas other than the Philippines or Indonesia.

You've probably seen it, but here is an article I wrote on this topic some time ago:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Thank you for the response. I did read your article, it was helpful.

So it sounds like location does have a lot to do with the prevalence, but is that due to the locations themselves, or to the shipping time?. Would you say that anthias from the Philippines and Indonesia are also more susceptible to carry uronema? Or just the chromis? Considering that uronema species live in the bottom of the bag just fine, I can definitely see why increased shipping times is a factor. Thank you, you’ve given me a lot to think on.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for the response. I did read your article, it was helpful.

So it sounds like location does have a lot to do with the prevalence, but is that due to the locations themselves, or to the shipping time?. Would you say that anthias from the Philippines and Indonesia are also more susceptible to carry uronema? Or just the chromis? Considering that uronema species live in the bottom of the bag just fine, I can definitely see why increased shipping times is a factor. Thank you, you’ve given me a lot to think on.

It seems to relate to shipping time and what they call "pack rate", how many fish they cram into a box. I still don't know how the protozoan gets inside the fish - perhaps they swallow them?

Jay

 

[BaghdadBean]

It seems to relate to shipping time and what they call "pack rate", how many fish they cram into a box. I still don't know how the protozoan gets inside the fish - perhaps they swallow them?

Jay

Given how multiple fish act in bags, I could see the swallowing them thing as a possibility. All it takes is one infected fish, sheds or defecates some infected material, rest of fish pick at it in bottom of shipping bag/box, and bam, infected bag of fish. The longer they’re in the bag, the more this cycle repeats.

I really am wondering though if we’re seeing more incidences of these infections on the reefs themselves due to rising stressors. I watch a Hawaiian reef cam a lot, and noticed there are seasonal outbreaks of what appears to be ich on the tangs there. Usually it clears up pretty fast, but sometimes the infections last a bit. I don’t know enough about fish collection practices to do more than wildly speculate though. Are there any books or articles you’d suggest on the subject? I need to deep dive into jstor sometime here any way.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Given how multiple fish act in bags, I could see the swallowing them thing as a possibility. All it takes is one infected fish, sheds or defecates some infected material, rest of fish pick at it in bottom of shipping bag/box, and bam, infected bag of fish. The longer they’re in the bag, the more this cycle repeats.

I really am wondering though if we’re seeing more incidences of these infections on the reefs themselves due to rising stressors. I watch a Hawaiian reef cam a lot, and noticed there are seasonal outbreaks of what appears to be ich on the tangs there. Usually it clears up pretty fast, but sometimes the infections last a bit. I don’t know enough about fish collection practices to do more than wildly speculate though. Are there any books or articles you’d suggest on the subject? I need to deep dive into jstor sometime here any way.

Damsels from overseas are packed in tiny individual bags, so they aren't getting direct pickup from fish that way. I've seen pack rates of 120 to 180 damsels in one Philippine double styro - pretty amazing.

Uronema is a ubiquitous protozoan, I've isolated it from problem-free tanks many times by baiting it to a piece of dead fish. I've heard numbers that range from 20% to 80% presence in tanks.

Jay

 

[Billldg]

Damsels from overseas are packed in tiny individual bags, so they aren't getting direct pickup from fish that way. I've seen pack rates of 120 to 180 damsels in one Philippine double styro - pretty amazing.

Uronema is a ubiquitous protozoan, I've isolated it from problem-free tanks many times by baiting it to a piece of dead fish. I've heard numbers that range from 20% to 80% presence in tanks.

Jay

Could it be more of the how the fish are handled as they are collected. Meaning the fishing vessels that the fish are kept in during capture, and then the holding facility afterward as the means of the fish named above contracting it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Could it be more of the how the fish are handled as they are collected. Meaning the fishing vessels that the fish are kept in during capture, and then the holding facility afterward as the means of the fish named above counteracting it.

Handling is certainly part of the equation. Indonesia, Philippines and Vietnam all have long supply chains and pack the fish very tightly. Still, fish from Sri Lanka aren't handled much better, but there is no cyanide use there and those fish fair better. Cyanide has a specific mortality trend where the fish arrive looking pretty good, but then die in droves 3 to 4 weeks later. Poor shipping tends to kill fish within a few days of being shipped.

Jay

 

[BaghdadBean]

Damsels from overseas are packed in tiny individual bags, so they aren't getting direct pickup from fish that way. I've seen pack rates of 120 to 180 damsels in one Philippine double styro - pretty amazing.

Uronema is a ubiquitous protozoan, I've isolated it from problem-free tanks many times by baiting it to a piece of dead fish. I've heard numbers that range from 20% to 80% presence in tanks.

Jay

Do you think it comes in on inverts and rock/sand, or just in with fish?