Achilles scratching in copper no sign of parasites

[lone reefer]

Hi everyone, I have an Achilles tang that is rubbing on the pvc tubes in my 55 quarantine but I can’t see anything on him. I’ve had him with a large purple tang and 2 purple firefish in a qt running copper power for almost 2 weeks. I bought them from my lfs the day they came in before going into their tanks at the store at a discount for taking the risk of buying a sick fish. Was willing to take the risk because I have a good size qt ready to go. I put them in day one with copper at .95 ppm (Hannah checker) and raised it to 2.5 over a week. The tangs looked a little rough and skinny initially but never saw signs of ich, flukes or any scratching and as soon as they started eating after a day or so their colors started looking good and the started fattening up and looking healthy. Currently all 4 fish have great appetites being fed some seaweed early in the day and frozen spirulina brine shrimp with seaweed extreme pellets soaked in vitachem with a scoop of metroplex and focus in the evening since day one. I noticed the Achilles started rubbing just yesterday after close to 2 weeks with no signs of anything and he’s the only one in the tank that’s flashing.
ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Temp 80
Salinity about 31 ppt
Copper 2.52 checked this morning
I already added some prazipro yesterday just in case of flukes, I know it’s not recommended with copper but I have a lot of aeration and water movement plus plenty of pretreated water ready to go if I need to do water changes. For the first half of today I saw no rubbing at all, I left for a few hours and when I returned he was rubbing again. I’m confused at this point. He doesn’t consistently rub but it definitely doesn’t seem like normal behavior and enough to be concerned. Could he possibly be sensitive to copper? Since I’m not seeing this behavior in the other tang that’s the only thing I can think of other than flukes. I’ll post some pictures, they’re not the best cuz he swims so fast, and some of the pictures makes it look like there are some white dots but it’s just bubbles in the water, id appreciate any input or advice. Thank you

 

[fishguy242]

hi, best wishes, let's get you some expert help here.
#fishmedic

 

[mcgullen]

Lots of ich cases never show the "salt-like" cysts because the infection happened in gills.

It takes copper a couple weeks to eliminate ich because copper only targets one stage in the ich cycle, when ich is in a vulnerable state for about 14 hours. No medication can kill ich when it is attached to the fish skin/gill or the tank bottom due to a protective coating.

If your fish is flashing but still have great appetite, that means we are like ly not in a late-stage emergency.

Keep the copper at the level recommended and for the duration recommended by the producer should solve the issue, if it is ich.

It also sounds like you are dosing Metronidazole and Praziquantel. Copper + Metronidazole + Praziquantel will cover the vast majority of pathogens. Keep their therapeutic levels for the next week and it should be fine.

 

[vetteguy53081]

What test kits are you using for copper and for ammonia and nitrate

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi everyone, I have an Achilles tang that is rubbing on the pvc tubes in my 55 quarantine but I can’t see anything on him. I’ve had him with a large purple tang and 2 purple firefish in a qt running copper power for almost 2 weeks. I bought them from my lfs the day they came in before going into their tanks at the store at a discount for taking the risk of buying a sick fish. Was willing to take the risk because I have a good size qt ready to go. I put them in day one with copper at .95 ppm (Hannah checker) and raised it to 2.5 over a week. The tangs looked a little rough and skinny initially but never saw signs of ich, flukes or any scratching and as soon as they started eating after a day or so their colors started looking good and the started fattening up and looking healthy. Currently all 4 fish have great appetites being fed some seaweed early in the day and frozen spirulina brine shrimp with seaweed extreme pellets soaked in vitachem with a scoop of metroplex and focus in the evening since day one. I noticed the Achilles started rubbing just yesterday after close to 2 weeks with no signs of anything and he’s the only one in the tank that’s flashing.
ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Temp 80
Salinity about 31 ppt
Copper 2.52 checked this morning
I already added some prazipro yesterday just in case of flukes, I know it’s not recommended with copper but I have a lot of aeration and water movement plus plenty of pretreated water ready to go if I need to do water changes. For the first half of today I saw no rubbing at all, I left for a few hours and when I returned he was rubbing again. I’m confused at this point. He doesn’t consistently rub but it definitely doesn’t seem like normal behavior and enough to be concerned. Could he possibly be sensitive to copper? Since I’m not seeing this behavior in the other tang that’s the only thing I can think of other than flukes. I’ll post some pictures, they’re not the best cuz he swims so fast, and some of the pictures makes it look like there are some white dots but it’s just bubbles in the water, id appreciate any input or advice. Thank you

As you may know, Achilles are very delicate and prone to ich. Personally, I've stopped acquiring them as they are just too much work for me to get them through quarantine.

Flashing like this, with no external symptoms is sometimes a behavioral issue, but more often it is caused by gill flukes. Gill flukes have eggs that prazi doesn't kill. These eggs then hatch out and reinfect the fish. You need to dose the Prazipro a second, and possibly a third time. The bottle says 48 hours apart, but I find 8 days is a better interval. Did you run a full dose of Prazipro? Always be sure to add good aeration when dosing Prazipro.

A couple of general observations - raising copper power over a week's time is too slow. It allows protozoans to gain a foothold on the fish, and then it doesn't work as well. You should always reach a full dose of CP or Coppersafe in 24 hours. I often move fish right into full copper. Also, mixing metroplex and focus - you shouldn't do that. I know everyone suggests that, but the dose for metro is pretty specific, and adding some to focus and then to some food, you don't know the dose. It turns out that metro is really bitter. The proper dose for metro is 5000 ppm in food. Turns out that many fish won't even eat that if you reach that dose!

Jay

 

[lone reefer]

What test kits are you using for copper and for ammonia and nitrate

Using Hannah checker for copper, salifert for nitrite and nitrate, seachem badge for ammonia

 

[lone reefer]

As you may know, Achilles are very delicate and prone to ich. Personally, I've stopped acquiring them as they are just too much work for me to get them through quarantine.

Flashing like this, with no external symptoms is sometimes a behavioral issue, but more often it is caused by gill flukes. Gill flukes have eggs that prazi doesn't kill. These eggs then hatch out and reinfect the fish. You need to dose the Prazipro a second, and possibly a third time. The bottle says 48 hours apart, but I find 8 days is a better interval. Did you run a full dose of Prazipro? Always be sure to add good aeration when dosing Prazipro.

A couple of general observations - raising copper power over a week's time is too slow. It allows protozoans to gain a foothold on the fish, and then it doesn't work as well. You should always reach a full dose of CP or Coppersafe in 24 hours. I often move fish right into full copper. Also, mixing metroplex and focus - you shouldn't do that. I know everyone suggests that, but the dose for metro is pretty specific, and adding some to focus and then to some food, you don't know the dose. It turns out that metro is really bitter. The proper dose for metro is 5000 ppm in food. Turns out that many fish won't even eat that if you reach that dose!

Jay

Thanks for the reply Jay, I raised the copper from .95 to 1.71 in 48 hours then another 48-72 hours to get to 2.5 which is what I had read from @Humblefish. I didn’t want to raise it too fast because I know the Achilles can be a sensitive fish. I dosed a full dose of prazi about 48 hours ago. I do have good aeration, in the form of a large airstone and large sponge filter with 2 power heads and a hob filter. I was going to wait 3 days then do a 40-50% wc then do a second dose of prazi. I have plenty of water pretreated with copper so wasn’t too worried about the bacterial bloom. I didn’t know that feeding metro and focus wasn’t a good idea, was just following manufacturer recommendations. I’ve only observed the flashing intermittently for the past 48 hours and only for a couple hours yesterday before and right after feeding. About 30-60 min after eating he seemed to stop rubbing. Could the stress of the meds and hunger possibly cause that behavior? He is always very hungry around feeding time and seems a little frantic before and right after feeding then seems to settle down after a meal. I’ve only observed him for a little bit today before the lights come on and haven’t seen him flashing yet this morning.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Using Hannah checker for copper, salifert for nitrite and nitrate, seachem badge for ammonia

One of the suspicions I had was ammonia and the badge is not reliable as api kits and used also fir freshwater Test
I would take a water sample to a reliable LFS that does Not use API test kits and see what readings they come up with

 

[lone reefer]

As you may know, Achilles are very delicate and prone to ich. Personally, I've stopped acquiring them as they are just too much work for me to get them through quarantine.

Flashing like this, with no external symptoms is sometimes a behavioral issue, but more often it is caused by gill flukes. Gill flukes have eggs that prazi doesn't kill. These eggs then hatch out and reinfect the fish. You need to dose the Prazipro a second, and possibly a third time. The bottle says 48 hours apart, but I find 8 days is a better interval. Did you run a full dose of Prazipro? Always be sure to add good aeration when dosing Prazipro.

A couple of general observations - raising copper power over a week's time is too slow. It allows protozoans to gain a foothold on the fish, and then it doesn't work as well. You should always reach a full dose of CP or Coppersafe in 24 hours. I often move fish right into full copper. Also, mixing metroplex and focus - you shouldn't do that. I know everyone suggests that, but the dose for metro is pretty specific, and adding some to focus and then to some food, you don't know the dose. It turns out that metro is really bitter. The proper dose for metro is 5000 ppm in food. Turns out that many fish won't even eat that if you reach that dose!

Jay

One of the suspicions I had was ammonia and the badge is not reliable as api kits and used also fir freshwater Test
I would take a water sample to a reliable LFS that does Not use API test kits and see what readings they come up with

I have the api and salifert test kit for ammonia, not reading anything significant on either, I wasn’t too worried about the ammonia because the qt was cycled using some seeded siporax from my display plus did a fishless cycle with microbacterxlm and dosing ammonia till ammonia and nitrites went to zero. I also did a large water change a few days ago, literally a day before I first noticed the flashing. The copper level never dipped as my pretreated water was actually slightly higher in copper than the water in the qt.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have the api and salifert test kit for ammonia, not reading anything significant on either, I wasn’t too worried about the ammonia because the qt was cycled using some seeded siporax from my display plus did a fishless cycle with microbacterxlm and dosing ammonia till ammonia and nitrites went to zero. I also did a large water change a few days ago, literally a day before I first noticed the flashing. The copper level never dipped as my pretreated water was actually slightly higher in copper than the water in the qt.

Based in this pic- ammonia is likely higher and in a quarantine setting can impose stress and reduced oxygen- heavy breathing

 

[lone reefer]

Based in this pic- ammonia is likely higher and in a quarantine setting can impose stress and reduced oxygen- heavy breathing

So what would you recommend? I have lots aeration and it doesn’t really seem like any of the fish are breathing heavy. I haven’t observed anything abnormal in either the purple tang or firefish that have been in with Achilles the entire time. I was going to give the prazi one more day which would be 72 hours then do a 50% wc then dose prazi for a second round either immediately after the wc or possibly the next day depending on the behavior of the fish.

 

[lone reefer]

Based in this pic- ammonia is likely higher and in a quarantine setting can impose stress and reduced oxygen- heavy breathing

I’ve been observing for a bit today before the lights come on and I haven’t seen signs of anything? I uploaded a 2 min video and I’d say behavior seems normal at the moment.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’ve been observing for a bit today before the lights come on and I haven’t seen signs of anything? I uploaded a 2 min video and I’d say behavior seems normal at the moment.

Fish does look content

 

[vetteguy53081]

So what would you recommend? I have lots aeration and it doesn’t really seem like any of the fish are breathing heavy. I haven’t observed anything abnormal in either the purple tang or firefish that have been in with Achilles the entire time. I was going to give the prazi one more day which would be 72 hours then do a 50% wc then dose prazi for a second round either immediately after the wc or possibly the next day depending on the behavior of the fish.

Saw video- looks ok
Prazi - run 8 days minimum

 

[lone reefer]

Saw video- looks ok
Prazi - run 8 days minimum

So would you recommend doing a wc at 4 days of prazi then immediately re dose and let go for another 4 days?

 

[vetteguy53081]

So would you recommend doing a wc at 4 days of prazi then immediately re dose and let go for another 4 days?

Typical treatment is 8 days, water change and another 8 days