Advice on Disease Control

[boyer.michael.s]

Hey everyone!

I am looking to get some recommendations from everyone on what course of action I should take with my tank. This tank is about 4 month old and appears to have some sort of disease that is killing my fish that I couldn't identify. Admittedly I did not QT the fish for this tank and will forever change those practices in the future.

All fish were eating well and acting normal until one day I woke up to my orchard dottyback dead. I couldn't see any signs of harassment from other fish or any indication of disease on the fish. I removed the fish and then continued on thinking it might just be that the fish expired. Later that same day I come back to my tank and find my orange-spotted blenny dead. Now worrying more, I sit and observe my fish for some time and notice that my yellow tang has a white film like coating starting on its side. Unsure what it is I just jump straight to QT for all fish remaining in tank. The remaining fish would be 2 clowns, 6 Pajama cardinals, 3 black axil chromis, 1 Fiji blue devil damselfish, and 1 yellow tang.

As of May 14th I started copper treatment with coppersafe as that was all I had at the time. The next day both clownfish and 3 pajama cardinals were dead. Since then all remain fish seem normal. I then increased DT temp to 81 degrees to begin a fallow period of at least 45 days starting May 17th. My copper power finally got here so I did transition to it and began the counter on May 18th for a 30 day treatment in copper for the remaining fish. The last couple of days one of the chromis began to display reddish blotches on its side that with further research looks consistent with uronema. This fish did have a tiny spot of this when I got it but at that time I did not know about uronema and thought that it may have just been a mark from other fish harassing him as the store had them in with a few aggressive fish. The initial spot vanished after a couple days of being in my DT and has not had any markings for over a month.

Now knowing that uronema is most likely present, how should I handle the fish currently in QT that are being treated with copper? Also, how should I handle my DT as the fallow period will be irrelevant for uronema?

Thank you for all your help.

 

[fishguy242]

#fishmedic

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey everyone!

I am looking to get some recommendations from everyone on what course of action I should take with my tank. This tank is about 4 month old and appears to have some sort of disease that is killing my fish that I couldn't identify. Admittedly I did not QT the fish for this tank and will forever change those practices in the future.

All fish were eating well and acting normal until one day I woke up to my orchard dottyback dead. I couldn't see any signs of harassment from other fish or any indication of disease on the fish. I removed the fish and then continued on thinking it might just be that the fish expired. Later that same day I come back to my tank and find my orange-spotted blenny dead. Now worrying more, I sit and observe my fish for some time and notice that my yellow tang has a white film like coating starting on its side. Unsure what it is I just jump straight to QT for all fish remaining in tank. The remaining fish would be 2 clowns, 6 Pajama cardinals, 3 black axil chromis, 1 Fiji blue devil damselfish, and 1 yellow tang.

As of May 14th I started copper treatment with coppersafe as that was all I had at the time. The next day both clownfish and 3 pajama cardinals were dead. Since then all remain fish seem normal. I then increased DT temp to 81 degrees to begin a fallow period of at least 45 days starting May 17th. My copper power finally got here so I did transition to it and began the counter on May 18th for a 30 day treatment in copper for the remaining fish. The last couple of days one of the chromis began to display reddish blotches on its side that with further research looks consistent with uronema. This fish did have a tiny spot of this when I got it but at that time I did not know about uronema and thought that it may have just been a mark from other fish harassing him as the store had them in with a few aggressive fish. The initial spot vanished after a couple days of being in my DT and has not had any markings for over a month.

Now knowing that uronema is most likely present, how should I handle the fish currently in QT that are being treated with copper? Also, how should I handle my DT as the fallow period will be irrelevant for uronema?

Thank you for all your help.

That’s a complicated scenario. Uronema is a ubiquitous protozoan, it is found in most aquariums, but is pathogenic only in limited cases, with certain species, usually when first acquired.
I’m not sure why you switched from coppersafe to copper power, they are essentially the same.
Did you see rapid breathing in he early fish losses?
Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

For starters…. Sounds like tang issue was bacterial. For the other fish, you dosed copper at what level and monitored with what test kit?
What is current ammonia-ph-nitrate-salinity

 

[boyer.michael.s]

I matched QT to DT as far as my parameters go.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - between 10-20 (feed pretty heavy but weekly water changes)
Salinity - 1.026
PH - 8.1 - 8.2

Obviously with QT the parameters fluctuate a tiny bit in terms of ammonia with lack of beneficial bacteria but I do partial water changes daily and 100% every 3rd day. Ammonia badge has been maintained at 0.05 ppm or less entire time.

As for copper treatment I have been at a 2.38 - 2.4 with copper power checking with a hannah checker.

 

[boyer.michael.s]

That’s a complicated scenario. Uronema is a ubiquitous protozoan, it is found in most aquariums, but is pathogenic only in limited cases, with certain species, usually when first acquired.
I’m not sure why you switched from coppersafe to copper power, they are essentially the same.
Did you see rapid breathing in he early fish losses?
Jay

I had the coppersafe but not enough for the entire process. I had that because I could get it locally but when I went to get more they did not have any and they couldn't tell me when it would be back in stock. Since I was ordering other items from BRS anyway I just added copper power to my cart and have switched to it.

As for the early fish losses from the DT, no they did not have any signs of rapid breathing that I witnessed. This goes for the early fish losses in the QT as well. Now the chromis when put into QT initially I felt like they had some rapid breathing but that quickly passed and they all seem normal now with the exception of the one chromis with the redness.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I matched QT to DT as far as my parameters go.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - between 10-20 (feed pretty heavy but weekly water changes)
Salinity - 1.026
PH - 8.1 - 8.2

Obviously with QT the parameters fluctuate a tiny bit in terms of ammonia with lack of beneficial bacteria but I do partial water changes daily and 100% every 3rd day. Ammonia badge has been maintained at 0.05 ppm or less entire time.

As for copper treatment I have been at a 2.38 - 2.4 with copper power checking with a hannah checker.

As suspected copper levels high. Therapeutic level is 2.24/2.5 for 30 days
Zero ammonia and nitrate- what test kits are you using?

 

[boyer.michael.s]

As suspected copper levels high. Therapeutic level is 2.24/2.5 for 30 days
Zero ammonia and nitrate- what test kits are you using?

Hannah checker for nitrate and seneye for ammonia. Also just because I had it available I also checked with the crappy API kit and those numbers seem to be within the same window.

As for copper I am confused? 2.38-2.4 are my levels which are between the range you have given for therapeutic levels of 2.24/2.5. Sorry if I'm missing something.

 

[boyer.michael.s]

They move so quickly when trying to take quick snapshot so best I could get for now. Plus lights are out.

 

[threebuoys]

Hannah checker for nitrate and seneye for ammonia. Also just because I had it available I also checked with the crappy API kit and those numbers seem to be within the same window.

As for copper I am confused? 2.38-2.4 are my levels which are between the range you have given for therapeutic levels of 2.24/2.5. Sorry if I'm missing something.

Your copper concentration is fine at 2.38 - 2.4 measured with a Hanna checker. As Jay said, and as you've assumed, Copper Power and Copper Safe are very similar products.

Is your tang still showing the symptoms that led you to QT in the first place? Since its been a couple of weeks and no photos are available, its difficult to assess what may have happened initially to cause the death of the dottyback, blenny, 2 clowns and 2 cardinals. Likely, the deaths were all related. If it was crypto or velvet, the copper treatment should resolve the problem for the remaining fish. If the problem was ammonia, hopefully the water quality and biological filtration are stable now. Ammonia can change rapidly in a DT or QT that is not cycled. The badges may not change quickly enough and may not be accurate enough to provide ample warning. So, until you are certain the QT is cycled, you should check ammonia at least daily. Assuming the sensor slide in the seneye is not expired, you should be getting accurate readings there.

Since we can't say for certain what caused the initial deaths, fallow for 6 - 8 weeks for the DT is your best option.

 

[boyer.michael.s]

Your copper concentration is fine at 2.38 - 2.4 measured with a Hanna checker. As Jay said, and as you've assumed, Copper Power and Copper Safe are very similar products.

Is your tang still showing the symptoms that led you to QT in the first place? Since its been a couple of weeks and no photos are available, its difficult to assess what may have happened initially to cause the death of the dottyback, blenny, 2 clowns and 2 cardinals. Likely, the deaths were all related. If it was crypto or velvet, the copper treatment should resolve the problem for the remaining fish. If the problem was ammonia, hopefully the water quality and biological filtration are stable now. Ammonia can change rapidly in a DT or QT that is not cycled. The badges may not change quickly enough and may not be accurate enough to provide ample warning. So, until you are certain the QT is cycled, you should check ammonia at least daily. Assuming the sensor slide in the seneye is not expired, you should be getting accurate readings there.

Since we can't say for certain what caused the initial deaths, fallow for 6 - 8 weeks for the DT is your best option.

The tang does not appear to have the symptoms I initial saw that lead to a full QT for all. As you have mentioned I will continue with fallow period for the DT.

With that said, what would be recommended for the presence of uronema? Is there anything I can treat my DT with to eliminate it from there? Also, in addition to the copper treatment how should I treat the current fish for uronema?

 

[threebuoys]

No treatment for uronema. It is present in most tanks. However, certain species are more sensitive and likely to experience it. Chromis for example are highly sensitive. Usually fatal once it appears.

 

[boyer.michael.s]

With the picture posted above, would you concur that this is uronema being that it is on a chromis as well? Everything I read says it kills quick and I have not seen any negative effects to this fishes overall health yet besides the marking themselves. And only 1 of the 3 have the markings showing.

I also would like to thank everyone who have been taking the time to reply and help. I really appreciate your advice.

 

[threebuoys]

The picture indicates what could be uronema. Usually, it will appear on both sides of the fish. If only on one side, it could be an injury. Best step at this point is to observe, but anticipate uronema to be the culprit.

 

[boyer.michael.s]

It does appear on both sides of the fish as well. Is there a way to test water for uronema to be certain that is the case? As you have mentioned, I will continue as I am with QT while observing the chromis. If there is a test that can be done to verify the uronema, I would like to do it just to have concrete answers. If there is nothing to treat uronema, is it just inevitable that all the chromis will die with its presence?

 

[threebuoys]

It does appear on both sides of the fish as well. Is there a way to test water for uronema to be certain that is the case? As you have mentioned, I will continue as I am with QT while observing the chromis. If there is a test that can be done to verify the uronema, I would like to do it just to have concrete answers. If there is nothing to treat uronema, is it just inevitable that all the chromis will die with its presence?

Really no test available for the hobbyist. I would say 99% likelihood its uronema. Sorry.

 

[LeftyReefer]

bummer, Uronema really sucks.
There's no cure for it and once red spots show up, the fish is as good as gone, unfortunately.

all you can do is hope and pray the other chromis don't get it.

 

[boyer.michael.s]

I agree with you that this is most likely uronema. Thank you for the help with that.

I'm just trying to use this as a learning experience now as there is still a lot I am not understanding. I understand that uronema is 99% the likelihood here. I seem to understand that my DT now has uronema as a result and it cannot be control with a fallow period so I will forever have uronema in my DT even after going through this fallow period I am doing for whatever else was going on with the other fish. This raises several questions for me though.

1. What I am not understanding is, when in my situation where I have 3 chromis, 1 sick 2 not sick(as of right now at least), do I assume they all have uronema or is it possible that the other 2 do not have it and never get it even living in a tank with it? If I am to assume they all have it, is the course of action to get rid of these fish as there is no treatment to rid them of it?

2. Being that the DT has uronema, can/should I no longer keep them(chromis) as well as some other fish that have been known to have problems with this such as butterflies and anthias? You have said that there is not a treatment to get rid of it so how do you protect future fish from getting it from your DT?

3. Being that my tang and cardinals have been in contact with the chromis and live in a DT that has uronema, will these fish now always pose a threat of introducing uronema to any tank it goes into in the future because of being exposed to it?

4. On the other hand, what if a DT did not have uronema? How do you keep it from getting in? What protocol would need to be taken to do that? I read a post from @4FordFamily where he says " I don't personally worry about uronema for anything other than new additions." and "I treat all new fish as if they have it to be safe." What kind of treatment are you to give fish for something that is being said you can't treat? Is the referred to treatment simply observation only to see if it shows signs and if it does show signs of uronema remove the fish and move on?

I am sure I will think of more. Again, I appreciate everyone who has chimed in. I have a mind that can't let something go until I have all the answers to the question I conjure up in my head. Sorry for the annoyance this has probably turned into. You guys are great.

 

[threebuoys]

I think Jay said it best earlier:

"Uronema is a ubiquitous protozoan, it is found in most aquariums, but is pathogenic only in limited cases, with certain species, usually when first acquired."

In other words, to attempt to eliminate it entirely from the aquarium will be futile. Certain species are more prone to infection than others. Clean water and healthy fish are the best steps you can take. You may also want to take this in consideration when you buy more fish. For me, when I experienced it with green chromis, I decided no more even if they are pretty and inexpensive. You really should not worry about a system wide wipe out at this point. And yes, some of the chromis may even survive without ever showing the infection.

Frustrating I know.

 

[boyer.michael.s]

I think Jay said it best earlier:

"Uronema is a ubiquitous protozoan, it is found in most aquariums, but is pathogenic only in limited cases, with certain species, usually when first acquired."

In other words, to attempt to eliminate it entirely from the aquarium will be futile. Certain species are more prone to infection than others. Clean water and healthy fish are the best steps you can take. You may also want to take this in consideration when you buy more fish. For me, when I experienced it with green chromis, I decided no more even if they are pretty and inexpensive. You really should not worry about a system wide wipe out at this point. And yes, some of the chromis may even survive without ever showing the infection.

Frustrating I know.

I am fine not having the chromis if thats the fate of my tank. They are like you said, pretty and inexpensive so it is sad to see something like this happen though. I just want to be well informed as to not endanger other fish I would like to keep that are more expensive as well.

From reading it seems that @Humblefish has a nice write up for treating fish with formalin to keep things healthy from the start during QT with these types of fish susceptible to uronema. Since all of my fish are currently in QT, is this something I should consider doing to them all since they were exposed? if so is this the appropriate stuff linked below?