Fish steadily dying in QT. Breathing heavily with no other symptoms

[static416]

I had an ich outbreak in my DT about 26 days ago, and yanked all of my fish out of the tank, moved into multiple QT tanks. I have way more fish than tanks, and some would kill each other, so they are split over 7 QT tanks of different sizes.

I consistently treated all of the tanks with Copper Power in the 2.2-2.5 range, other than my lionfish which is in hyposalinity maintained by an ATO.

All tanks have airstones and HOB filters with only rocks and foam for bio-media.

History

Up to day 12/13 everything is fine.

- The few fish that showed spots had them go away.
- Everyone was eating
- I monitored ammonia closely with Seachem badges and Hanna checker, and most tanks got a 80-90% water change every other day to keep ammonia down.

Around day 12, I decided to pro-actively treat with General Cure in addition to the copper. I know this is frowned upon and I wish I could undo it, but there were a few people on here saying they regularly use GC + Copper without issue. And I had previously used PraziPro in the past with copper a few times, with no bad results, despite it being worse because of the liquid form containing a solvent (I didn't know at the time).

Day 13, everything was fine.

Around day 14 I noticed two fish breathing heavily, Copperband and Purple Tang, both in the same tank. Did an 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.

On day 16 the Copperband, Purple Tang, and two damsels in that tank were dead. Another 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.
On day 17, no deaths, double-checked that copper levels are correct in all tanks. Large Powder Blue tang in other tank is breathing heavy, as well as most remaining fish in first group of deaths.
On day 20 two more dead damsels. dead cleaner wrasse and dead royal gramma. Another 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.
On day 22, also dead Marine Betta in another tank, and Maroon Clown in the same tank. Powder Blue dies too.
On day 24, two dead Perc clowns in a so-far uneffected tank.

Now we're on day 26 and my Coris wrasse (same tank as the last two percs) is crashed on the bottom and breathing heavily. My Magnificent Foxface is moving well, but also breathing very heavy (same tank as the Powder Blue that died a week or so ago).

Overview
Over the space of about 12 days, I've lost about 14 fish across 4 of the 7 tanks.
- None of them showed any spots or symptoms other than breathing heavily
- Most went from first symtoms to death in 2-3 days at most.
- All of them were in Copper-treated tanks for the entire duration, up until the last couple days when I've started suspecting copper toxicity and backing it off.
- All of them had the same treatment of copper + GC.
- Some I've tried to save with peroxide dips or methylene blue dips, with no effect.
- It's not ammonia, the badges and testing show that, and I do frequent water changes.

Survivors
Oddly, not all are effected.

- One entire tank, the most heavily stocked, with 5 Anthias, a Tomini Tang, Firefish, Redhead Goby has had no deaths and no effects
- 7 Chromis in the tank with the most, and fastest fatalities, were completely uneffected and fine.
- Two Bluethroat triggers, in separate tanks with deaths, also uneffected so far.
- Two rabbitfish mostly uneffected, one breathing a bit hard, but has been for awhile.

Questions
- Velvet seems like the obvious answer, but this many deaths with no spots? Only gills? How can it survive 2.3-2.5 copper power?
- Could it be copper toxicity at some point that is just catching up with them? I have stopped copper two days ago in case.
- Would the GC + Copper Power really have created this much trouble? Why are some completely fine? Even sensitive stuff like Anthias?
- Are there options I haven't tried?
- Are there drug conflicts I haven't thought of?
- I have sporadically added anti-biotics (Metroplex/Kanaplex/Sulfaplex) at different times to see if it had any effect, but did not.
- I just tried adding 1ml per 3gal of peroxide to a few tanks in case it's Velvet. Good idea/bad idea?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I had an ich outbreak in my DT about 26 days ago, and yanked all of my fish out of the tank, moved into multiple QT tanks. I have way more fish than tanks, and some would kill each other, so they are split over 7 QT tanks of different sizes.

I consistently treated all of the tanks with Copper Power in the 2.2-2.5 range, other than my lionfish which is in hyposalinity maintained by an ATO.

All tanks have airstones and HOB filters with only rocks and foam for bio-media.

History

Up to day 12/13 everything is fine.

- The few fish that showed spots had them go away.
- Everyone was eating
- I monitored ammonia closely with Seachem badges and Hanna checker, and most tanks got a 80-90% water change every other day to keep ammonia down.

Around day 12, I decided to pro-actively treat with General Cure in addition to the copper. I know this is frowned upon and I wish I could undo it, but there were a few people on here saying they regularly use GC + Copper without issue. And I had previously used PraziPro in the past with copper a few times, with no bad results, despite it being worse because of the liquid form containing a solvent (I didn't know at the time).

Day 13, everything was fine.

Around day 14 I noticed two fish breathing heavily, Copperband and Purple Tang, both in the same tank. Did an 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.

On day 16 the Copperband, Purple Tang, and two damsels in that tank were dead. Another 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.
On day 17, no deaths, double-checked that copper levels are correct in all tanks. Large Powder Blue tang in other tank is breathing heavy, as well as most remaining fish in first group of deaths.
On day 20 two more dead damsels. dead cleaner wrasse and dead royal gramma. Another 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.
On day 22, also dead Marine Betta in another tank, and Maroon Clown in the same tank. Powder Blue dies too.
On day 24, two dead Perc clowns in a so-far uneffected tank.

Now we're on day 26 and my Coris wrasse (same tank as the last two percs) is crashed on the bottom and breathing heavily. My Magnificent Foxface is moving well, but also breathing very heavy (same tank as the Powder Blue that died a week or so ago).

Overview
Over the space of about 12 days, I've lost about 14 fish across 4 of the 7 tanks.
- None of them showed any spots or symptoms other than breathing heavily
- Most went from first symtoms to death in 2-3 days at most.
- All of them were in Copper-treated tanks for the entire duration, up until the last couple days when I've started suspecting copper toxicity and backing it off.
- All of them had the same treatment of copper + GC.
- Some I've tried to save with peroxide dips or methylene blue dips, with no effect.
- It's not ammonia, the badges and testing show that, and I do frequent water changes.

Survivors
Oddly, not all are effected.

- One entire tank, the most heavily stocked, with 5 Anthias, a Tomini Tang, Firefish, Redhead Goby has had no deaths and no effects
- 7 Chromis in the tank with the most, and fastest fatalities, were completely uneffected and fine.
- Two Bluethroat triggers, in separate tanks with deaths, also uneffected so far.
- Two rabbitfish mostly uneffected, one breathing a bit hard, but has been for awhile.

Questions
- Velvet seems like the obvious answer, but this many deaths with no spots? Only gills? How can it survive 2.3-2.5 copper power?
- Could it be copper toxicity at some point that is just catching up with them? I have stopped copper two days ago in case.
- Would the GC + Copper Power really have created this much trouble? Why are some completely fine? Even sensitive stuff like Anthias?
- Are there options I haven't tried?
- Are there drug conflicts I haven't thought of?
- I have sporadically added anti-biotics (Metroplex/Kanaplex/Sulfaplex) at different times to see if it had any effect, but did not.
- I just tried adding 1ml per 3gal of peroxide to a few tanks in case it's Velvet. Good idea/bad idea?

First thing is to stop adding anything to copper which has binders and it suggests you are reading and adding. A relationship I see id fish fine until GC was added and contains metro, prazi and other items you dnt want to mix copper making it toxic.
Also, need to see clear pics under white light intensity to clearly assess what you have.
Are fish displaying heavy breathing. loss of appetite and sluggish behavior?
Peroxide is an oxidizer and likely wont do much if anything.

 

[Jekyl]

When water is changed are you adding copper first? Anything below 2.2 restarts the whole process.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I had an ich outbreak in my DT about 26 days ago, and yanked all of my fish out of the tank, moved into multiple QT tanks. I have way more fish than tanks, and some would kill each other, so they are split over 7 QT tanks of different sizes.

I consistently treated all of the tanks with Copper Power in the 2.2-2.5 range, other than my lionfish which is in hyposalinity maintained by an ATO.

All tanks have airstones and HOB filters with only rocks and foam for bio-media.

History

Up to day 12/13 everything is fine.

- The few fish that showed spots had them go away.
- Everyone was eating
- I monitored ammonia closely with Seachem badges and Hanna checker, and most tanks got a 80-90% water change every other day to keep ammonia down.

Around day 12, I decided to pro-actively treat with General Cure in addition to the copper. I know this is frowned upon and I wish I could undo it, but there were a few people on here saying they regularly use GC + Copper without issue. And I had previously used PraziPro in the past with copper a few times, with no bad results, despite it being worse because of the liquid form containing a solvent (I didn't know at the time).

Day 13, everything was fine.

Around day 14 I noticed two fish breathing heavily, Copperband and Purple Tang, both in the same tank. Did an 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.

On day 16 the Copperband, Purple Tang, and two damsels in that tank were dead. Another 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.
On day 17, no deaths, double-checked that copper levels are correct in all tanks. Large Powder Blue tang in other tank is breathing heavy, as well as most remaining fish in first group of deaths.
On day 20 two more dead damsels. dead cleaner wrasse and dead royal gramma. Another 80% waterchange and adjusted the copper back to 2.3.
On day 22, also dead Marine Betta in another tank, and Maroon Clown in the same tank. Powder Blue dies too.
On day 24, two dead Perc clowns in a so-far uneffected tank.

Now we're on day 26 and my Coris wrasse (same tank as the last two percs) is crashed on the bottom and breathing heavily. My Magnificent Foxface is moving well, but also breathing very heavy (same tank as the Powder Blue that died a week or so ago).

Overview
Over the space of about 12 days, I've lost about 14 fish across 4 of the 7 tanks.
- None of them showed any spots or symptoms other than breathing heavily
- Most went from first symtoms to death in 2-3 days at most.
- All of them were in Copper-treated tanks for the entire duration, up until the last couple days when I've started suspecting copper toxicity and backing it off.
- All of them had the same treatment of copper + GC.
- Some I've tried to save with peroxide dips or methylene blue dips, with no effect.
- It's not ammonia, the badges and testing show that, and I do frequent water changes.

Survivors
Oddly, not all are effected.

- One entire tank, the most heavily stocked, with 5 Anthias, a Tomini Tang, Firefish, Redhead Goby has had no deaths and no effects
- 7 Chromis in the tank with the most, and fastest fatalities, were completely uneffected and fine.
- Two Bluethroat triggers, in separate tanks with deaths, also uneffected so far.
- Two rabbitfish mostly uneffected, one breathing a bit hard, but has been for awhile.

Questions
- Velvet seems like the obvious answer, but this many deaths with no spots? Only gills? How can it survive 2.3-2.5 copper power?
- Could it be copper toxicity at some point that is just catching up with them? I have stopped copper two days ago in case.
- Would the GC + Copper Power really have created this much trouble? Why are some completely fine? Even sensitive stuff like Anthias?
- Are there options I haven't tried?
- Are there drug conflicts I haven't thought of?
- I have sporadically added anti-biotics (Metroplex/Kanaplex/Sulfaplex) at different times to see if it had any effect, but did not.
- I just tried adding 1ml per 3gal of peroxide to a few tanks in case it's Velvet. Good idea/bad idea?

Wow - tough deal.

In response to your questions:

- Velvet seems like the obvious answer, but this many deaths with no spots? Only gills? How can it survive 2.3-2.5 copper power? True Velvet doesn't show as spots. You'll just see rapid breathing, followed in a day or two by death. I would NOT expect Velvet to cause disease in fish in copper power above 2.25

- Could it be copper toxicity at some point that is just catching up with them? I have stopped copper two days ago in case. No - fish can live for many months in coppersafe, and I expect copper power to be the same, as they are in effect copies of each other.

- Would the GC + Copper Power really have created this much trouble? Why are some completely fine? Even sensitive stuff like Anthias? I've never dosed copper power and GC. I've dosed coppersafe and praziquantel with no real issues, prazipro is a bit more of an issue, due to the solvent, as you know.

- Are there options I haven't tried? If it was true velvet, you could try chloroquine, but I would hesitate doing that since we do not know for sure if this is velvet, or some chemical reaction.

- Are there drug conflicts I haven't thought of? I'm always concerned using any reducing agent with amine-based copper products; these could be ammonia removers or dechlorinators.

- I have sporadically added anti-biotics (Metroplex/Kanaplex/Sulfaplex) at different times to see if it had any effect, but did not. I have two references that say to not use amine-based copper with neomycin, but I don't have any reports for other antibiotics.

- I just tried adding 1ml per 3gal of peroxide to a few tanks in case it's Velvet. Good idea/bad idea? Not really going to help. That is an idea extrapolated from a paper published on treating pacific threadfin with peroxide. Trouble is, the dose they used was much higher, 75 ppm, and the fish were dipped for 30 minutes and then moved to a sterile tank twice, so adding a small amount like that to the tank itself just won't cut it.

 

[static416]

Wow - tough deal.

In response to your questions:

- I would NOT expect Velvet to cause disease in fish in copper power above 2.25

In response here, there is maybe a 10min window between starting the waterchange and re-adjusting the copper. I wouldn't expect that to be wide enough for a notable number of parasites to hatch and attach, but curious what others think.

I know the narrative here is that any gap is a full reset, but that seems extremely pessimistic? But I'm not an expert here.

- No - fish can live for many months in coppersafe, and I expect copper power to be the same, as they are in effect copies of each other.

Good to know, I'll bring the copper back up tonight.

- I've never dosed copper power and GC. I've dosed coppersafe and praziquantel with no real issues, prazipro is a bit more of an issue, due to the solvent, as you know.

No PraziPro this time, so that's good.

- If it was true velvet, you could try chloroquine, but I would hesitate doing that since we do not know for sure if this is velvet, or some chemical reaction.

Yeah, I don't have access to chloroquine in any case, and it seems more challenging to apply (maintaining no bio-film).

- I'm always concerned using any reducing agent with amine-based copper products; these could be ammonia removers or dechlorinators.

None of this, only RODI water.

- I have two references that say to not use amine-based copper with neomycin, but I don't have any reports for other antibiotics.

Good to know, have not tried NeoPlex yet.

- Not really going to help. That is an idea extrapolated from a paper published on treating pacific threadfin with peroxide. Trouble is, the dose they used was much higher, 75 ppm, and the fish were dipped for 30 minutes and then moved to a sterile tank twice, so adding a small amount like that to the tank itself just won't cut it.

Yes, this was based on some anecdotal evidence here and on humblefish. I did try the dip and it worked well for an unrelated issue previously.

---

Overall I guess my only option is to increase copper back up and hope for the best. Frustrating.

 

[static416]

Also, need to see clear pics under white light intensity to clearly assess what you have.

I can definitely provide that, my Coris Wrasse is crashed, but I couldn't see anything visual.

 

[Freenow54]

I lost 3 fish in Quarantine just in the last couple of weeks. I do know when one dies take the other fish out and move them in your case. the water must smell awful. In my case I removed the lone survivor, did a complete cleaning of tank, and put it back in. Its doing great. Doesnt like me but too bad

 

[threebuoys]

One more thought,

You did not indicate the size of the QT tanks, only that deaths occurred in some and not others.

Is it possible, given the breathing difficulty that you have an oxygen shortage in one or more tanks that have larger, more active fish in them? Prazi, particularly prazipro, requires additional oxygen , usually by airstones. What's the water temp? Warmer holds less oxygen. Your description and Jay's analysis suggests Velvet is unlikely. You also have checked regularly for ammonia and made water changes to reduce that risk. Given that labored breathing is still present, perhaps add a lot more oxygenation by airstones?

 

[static416]

I can definitely provide that, my Coris Wrasse is crashed, but I couldn't see anything visual.

This is Cory the Coris Wrasse.

Maybe you can see something I cannot, but even at high resolution it looks perfect.

Only thing that I see, is that the spot where the fin joins behind the gill is a bit red. But I suspect that's just from swimming constantly in a small space, trying to stay near the filter or surface. Others that died had something similar sometimes.

Gills are puffing very open as well at times, but you'd expect as much if they can't get enough oxygen.

 

[threebuoys]

One more question, were all of these fish recent acquisitions or have you had them for a while?

Edit: Thinking if new maybe some brought un-diagnosed illnesses with them.

 

[static416]

One more thought,

You did not indicate the size of the QT tanks, only that deaths occurred in some and not others.

Is it possible, given the breathing difficulty that you have an oxygen shortage in one or more tanks that have larger, more active fish in them? Prazi, particularly prazipro, requires additional oxygen , usually by airstones. What's the water temp? Warmer holds less oxygen. Your description and Jay's analysis suggests Velvet is unlikely. You also have checked regularly for ammonia and made water changes to reduce that risk. Given that labored breathing is still present, perhaps add a lot more oxygenation by airstones?

They vary in size. 29gal, 15gal, 20gal, and four 10gal.

The deaths occured in all sizes, and at all stocking levels. The most intensively stocked is a 10gal with all the five Anthias, a Maroon clown, a Tomini Tang, and a few smaller ones. It has had no deaths, but needs daily water changes, and no one looks stressed.

The Powder Blue died and was alone in the 20gal with the Foxface.

The airstones are running very intensely and continuously, and if there are fish puffing away in one, I'll do daily, or twice daily water changes.

I've gone through five 200gal buckets of salt in 26 days. Getting expensive, but I just want to find the solution.

 

[static416]

One more question, were all of these fish recent acquisitions or have you had them for a while?

Edit: Thinking if new maybe some brought un-diagnosed illnesses with them.

There are recent additions, not sure which brought in the disease, but it was one of them.

The most effected new addition was a Moorish Idol. It appeared to completely recover in the first few days of treatment in QT. No more ich. And was eating great.

Then 5 days ago it started panting at the surface, and was dead a day later.

---

The one that is a bit suspicious is the Scribbled rabbitfish, which had a kind of fuzz or fungus on one side when I got it, but seemed to not care.

It wasn't effected by copper or Sulfaplex or Metroplex. But went away with a single peroxide dip and has not returned.

 

[static416]

Honestly, if fish could catch COVID, that would be my guess from the symptoms.

 

[miyags]

Any seeded filtration? To me more fish die in QT from ammonia.

 

[Freenow54]

One more thought,

You did not indicate the size of the QT tanks, only that deaths occurred in some and not others.

Is it possible, given the breathing difficulty that you have an oxygen shortage in one or more tanks that have larger, more active fish in them? Prazi, particularly prazipro, requires additional oxygen , usually by airstones. What's the water temp? Warmer holds less oxygen. Your description and Jay's analysis suggests Velvet is unlikely. You also have checked regularly for ammonia and made water changes to reduce that risk. Given that labored breathing is still present, perhaps add a lot more oxygenation by airstones?

As to Ammonia removal with water changes you are chasing the end of the rainbow. I know this for sure eventually I killed one of my fish by being too aggressive. did 40 gallons of water changes on a 40 in an hour with no change. Was recommended using Prime which I was told ( binds ) the ammonia for easier removal. Unfortunately was too late to confirm this

 

[Jay Hemdal]

In response here, there is maybe a 10min window between starting the waterchange and re-adjusting the copper. I wouldn't expect that to be wide enough for a notable number of parasites to hatch and attach, but curious what others think.

I know the narrative here is that any gap is a full reset, but that seems extremely pessimistic? But I'm not an expert here.

Good to know, I'll bring the copper back up tonight.

No PraziPro this time, so that's good.

Yeah, I don't have access to chloroquine in any case, and it seems more challenging to apply (maintaining no bio-film).

None of this, only RODI water.

Good to know, have not tried NeoPlex yet.

Yes, this was based on some anecdotal evidence here and on humblefish. I did try the dip and it worked well for an unrelated issue previously.

---

Overall I guess my only option is to increase copper back up and hope for the best. Frustrating.

A short dip in copper is normal when people are doing water changes and redosing, that will have no detriment to the efficacy of the treatment.
This idea that ANY lapse in copper will require a “restart” of the treatment simply isn’t true. Now, a drop below 2 ppm for more than a day is more serious, but even then, it just extends the treatment time, not restart it.
For active infections, I like to run copper for 30 days beyond when the symptoms abated. Some people cut that to 21 or even 14 days, but I’m more conservative.

 

[static416]

For active infections, I like to run copper for 30 days beyond when the symptoms abated. Some people cut that to 21 or even 14 days, but I’m more conservative.

Seems obvious now that you say it, but it makes way more sense to define the period starting from when symptoms disappear, rather than when treatment starts.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Seems obvious now that you say it, but it makes way more sense to define the period starting from when symptoms disappear, rather than when treatment starts.

For quarantine, when the fish start with no symptoms, you just go 30 days.

 

[MnFish1]

A short dip in copper is normal when people are doing water changes and redosing, that will have no detriment to the efficacy of the treatment.
This idea that ANY lapse in copper will require a “restart” of the treatment simply isn’t true. Now, a drop below 2 ppm for more than a day is more serious, but even then, it just extends the treatment time, not restart it.
For active infections, I like to run copper for 30 days beyond when the symptoms abated. Some people cut that to 21 or even 14 days, but I’m more conservative.

I like the idea that 'any' lapse in copper requires a reset because - the converse is unknown - ie. how long can a lapse be ignored - is it a day 1/2, etc etc It adds to the hassle - and I agree with @Jay Hemdal that lower levels may not need to be so cautiously monitored, but - it quite often that someone with a failed QT comes back with 'well - I did let it drop for xx minutes/hours. The problem is no-one knows for sure when it's ok.

 

[MnFish1]

In response here, there is maybe a 10min window between starting the waterchange and re-adjusting the copper.

As I suggested before - it's a very very low risk. However, it is a risk. It depends on how compulsive you want to be. It also sounds like you stopped copper at 26 days and then restarted it?