Alage? ID

[mcarroll]

I'm just done fighting this tank at this point.

I've been here before. Maybe just let the tank run for a month or two without any intervention.

Sometimes getting the fight out of you has to be the first step instead of the final one. I think reeferfox is right on the money, too.

Leave "cures" and "eradication" and "battles" completely out of your mind for a while.

Where the algae is encroaching on corals, you can focus efforts there and that will solve your short term concerns.

Once the battle is long-term, it's in your favor. (You have to remember it's long-term tho.)

To treat patches of algae with peroxide:

• Use a small syringe and 1-2 mL of hydrogen peroxide
• turn off all pumps and allow flow to come to a full stop
• treat one to two square inches of algae at it's base with the peroxide
• after you apply the peroxide, leave the pumps off for another minute or two
• start the system back up; wait for that patch to die
• repeat in 24 hours on another patch; etc

You can probably treat more than one patch per day.

You might be able to leave the pumps off for longer during the treatment.

Consider either of those options as experiments and go slowly in those directions, if you go.

Don't worry about any areas of the tank other than where the algae is impinging on your corals directly.

Lack of grazing
How are your fish doing, and how do you feed them? (what and how much?)

Most snails will also happily dine on detritus. (So will most "herbivore" fish.)

So if your fish are fat and happy, now might be the time for a short fasting period.

It also could be viewed as a sign that you need even more herbivore snails.

It also might signal the need for increased biology in the anti-detritus camp....some peppermint shrimp would be awesome, if compatible with current stock. You'll have to remind me how many if you have them already, but Nassarius snails are also a great option

Other venues
Can you remind me if you have other places in the tank (ATS, refugium, etc) for algae to grow?

With the quantity of growth you're describing, it sounds like it would be a good option to use, if you aren't already.

 

[rtparty]

I'll try to answer as many of the questions as I can...

Fluco has not worked at all. Almost every coral is now dead. Only surviving pieces are a hammer, some torch and acans. Multiple LPS pieces and my Monti are dead. All astraea snails are dying or dead. Mexican turbo died about 10 days ago. Ceriths usually stay buried in the sand. So plenty of them could be dead as well.

My African Midas blenny somehow jumped even with the screen in place. No idea how...

Hair algae is everywhere except the tonga branch rock. It's growing on the sand, pumps, snail shells, you name it.

No refugium and no room. I absolutely hate the 2 foot cube tank and will never run one again. There is just no good sump options without custom. No herbivorous fish do well in this size of tank.

I ran a 72 hour blackout and it did nothing. Cyano sort of disappeared but has come right back.

For fish I currently have:

Red Firefish
Scooter Blenny
4 chromis
Tri color wrasse

The scooter blenny was to help with a flatworm outbreak months ago. I haven't seen any in a long time so I'll probably go get credit for him since he is eating all my pods which isn't helping the algae.

Dosing N and P has become pointless because the hair algae consumes it so quickly. I don't even get algae growth on my glass right now.

So I'm at a serious crossroads right now and have 2 options I'm considering...

1) Sell everything off and go FW or go tankless for quite some time. This is leading by a large margin right now

2) Pull out all Fiji and Pukani rock, order more tonga branch, suck out half or all the sand and basically start the tank over.

With everything dying, something is seriously off but I have no clue what. The big 3 plus N and P are all great. Temperature is fine at a constant 78°. Salinity is spot on at 35 or 1.026. All pumps seem to be just fine, no rust.

It's clear to me the dead rock is leaching stuff like crazy and hence why I plan to remove the Fiji and Pukani. The Tonga branch doesn't have anything to leach. This will decimate my pods and bacteria but I see no other options at this point. Many reports show this cycle can last well over 2 years. Personally, I'll be done with the hobby before going through this for that long.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'll try to answer as many of the questions as I can...

Fluco has not worked at all. Almost every coral is now dead. Only surviving pieces are a hammer, some torch and acans. Multiple LPS pieces and my Monti are dead. All astraea snails are dying or dead. Mexican turbo died about 10 days ago. Ceriths usually stay buried in the sand. So plenty of them could be dead as well.

My African Midas blenny somehow jumped even with the screen in place. No idea how...

Hair algae is everywhere except the tonga branch rock. It's growing on the sand, pumps, snail shells, you name it.

No refugium and no room. I absolutely hate the 2 foot cube tank and will never run one again. There is just no good sump options without custom. No herbivorous fish do well in this size of tank.

I ran a 72 hour blackout and it did nothing. Cyano sort of disappeared but has come right back.

For fish I currently have:

Red Firefish
Scooter Blenny
4 chromis
Tri color wrasse

The scooter blenny was to help with a flatworm outbreak months ago. I haven't seen any in a long time so I'll probably go get credit for him since he is eating all my pods which isn't helping the algae.

Dosing N and P has become pointless because the hair algae consumes it so quickly. I don't even get algae growth on my glass right now.

So I'm at a serious crossroads right now and have 2 options I'm considering...

1) Sell everything off and go FW or go tankless for quite some time. This is leading by a large margin right now

2) Pull out all Fiji and Pukani rock, order more tonga branch, suck out half or all the sand and basically start the tank over.

With everything dying, something is seriously off but I have no clue what. The big 3 plus N and P are all great. Temperature is fine at a constant 78°. Salinity is spot on at 35 or 1.026. All pumps seem to be just fine, no rust.

It's clear to me the dead rock is leaching stuff like crazy and hence why I plan to remove the Fiji and Pukani. The Tonga branch doesn't have anything to leach. This will decimate my pods and bacteria but I see no other options at this point. Many reports show this cycle can last well over 2 years. Personally, I'll be done with the hobby before going through this for that long.

Dang. Sorry to hear.

IMO , there is nothing leaching of the rocks that is unusual for any tank.
My feeling is you may want to look closer at the source water (rodi) I’m sure you have.

But honestly , here is what I would do .

This is from a couple weeks ago.
Canister filter (or reactor ) with floss and gac and gfo , drain tank down into two buckets, one for scrubbing one for rinsing. A bucket or two for the corals and Rick to sit in. I left the fish in the tank. Add drains one and only.

It sounds crazy, but has always worked for me. Fiji mud by Walt smith. $20.

The theory on dosing nutints is to encourage other micro organisms to compete with problem ones. The problem ones thrive in No3/Po4 limited systems. Nitrifying bacteria are easily out competed in that scenario. Thus the dr Tim’s. I don’t reccomend mb7 for this , I belive it has an organic carbon dose component. Cyano and many other organisms like that carbon too.
IMO , if things are out of hand , a single strain of nitrifying bacteria or even a multiple strain dose may still not be quite enough t compete. Esp if the n/p and ammoina is being absorbed quilcly by the Christo and gha.

The mud contains a bizzarly diverse number of organisms. They work to compete for resources. And most seem to prefer high oxygen and normal n/p. The mud will also add some nutints , yes.

Probaly seems like a gorpy tree hugging holistic approach , and it is.
But I think anyone who composts and amends terrestrial soils would agree.

Def get some more snails with an eye twards diverse grazers.

 

[rtparty]

Dang. Sorry to hear.

IMO , there is nothing leaching of the rocks that is unusual for any tank.
My feeling is you may want to look closer at the source water (rodi) I’m sure you have.

But honestly , here is what I would do .

This is from a couple weeks ago.
Canister filter (or reactor ) with floss and gac and gfo , drain tank down into two buckets, one for scrubbing one for rinsing. A bucket or two for the corals and Rick to sit in. I left the fish in the tank. Add drains one and only.

It sounds crazy, but has always worked for me. Fiji mud by Walt smith. $20.

The theory on dosing nutints is to encourage other micro organisms to compete with problem ones. The problem ones thrive in No3/Po4 limited systems. Nitrifying bacteria are easily out competed in that scenario. Thus the dr Tim’s. I don’t reccomend mb7 for this , I belive it has an organic carbon dose component. Cyano and many other organisms like that carbon too.
IMO , if things are out of hand , a single strain of nitrifying bacteria or even a multiple strain dose may still not be quite enough t compete. Esp if the n/p and ammoina is being absorbed quilcly by the Christo and gha.

The mud contains a bizzarly diverse number of organisms. They work to compete for resources. And most seem to prefer high oxygen and normal n/p. The mud will also add some nutints , yes.

Probaly seems like a gorpy tree hugging holistic approach , and it is.
But I think anyone who composts and amends terrestrial soils would agree.

Def get some more snails with an eye twards diverse grazers.

I've contemplated scrubbing all the rocks really well and making sure there are a ton of snails ready to graze. Plus the urchin should graze the smaller stuff...I hope

I question if there isn't something in the water killing the snails though. They all died within a week.


RODI reads at 0TDS. All filters are less than a year old and haven't made much water. I'd bet I haven't made 500 gallons of RO/DI. My DI is barely starting to change color at the bottom. Source water comes in around 300-350TDS.

If I don't dose N and P, my readings will be zero. Even before the GHA took over. Hence, why this thread exists. That's why I think the rock is leaching at this point. Something is feeding the GHA and it certainly isn't my feeding habits. I feed less than most. Currently I switch between spirulina, angel and butterfly mix, LRS and Cyclops.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I've contemplated scrubbing all the rocks really well and making sure there are a ton of snails ready to graze. Plus the urchin should graze the smaller stuff...I hope

I question if there isn't something in the water killing the snails though. They all died within a week.


RODI reads at 0TDS. All filters are less than a year old and haven't made much water. I'd bet I haven't made 500 gallons of RO/DI. My DI is barely starting to change color at the bottom. Source water comes in around 300-350TDS.

If I don't dose N and P, my readings will be zero. Even before the GHA took over. Hence, why this thread exists. That's why I think the rock is leaching at this point. Something is feeding the GHA and it certainly isn't my feeding habits. I feed less than most. Currently I switch between spirulina, angel and butterfly mix, LRS and Cyclops.

Ammonia will directly feed alge.

I had water probs at 1 tds recently and dint catch it , Thus the big scrub you see pictured above.

You could test for copper I suppose for the snails.
Without dropping cash on tests that may show nothing, I spent a lot less in implementing a treatment that would remove any of the things the tests would posibly show and address the things tests don’t show.

If it was new rock, I’d doubt anytimg unusual is on it. Most folks complaint is Po4 from. And you don’t have any.

 

[rtparty]

Ammonia will directly feed alge.

I had water probs at 1 tds recently and dint catch it , Thus the big scrub you see pictured above.

You could test for copper I suppose for the snails.
Without dropping cash on tests that may show nothing, I spent a lot less in implementing a treatment that would remove any of the things the tests would posibly show and address the things tests don’t show.

If it was new rock, I’d doubt anytimg unusual is on it. Most folks complaint is Po4 from. And you don’t have any.

Just made 10 gallons of RO. Water going into the unit was 237, after RO and before DI was 3 and then 0 after DI.

So unless something serious is getting through, I don't think source water is the issue.

I have ordered new salt and plan to do a 30% water change using the new salt. I highly doubt my current salt is an issue though. I haven't done any water changes in quite some time. I do wonder if this isn't part of the problem. I know there are plenty of people who run zero water changes and the hobby itself wants to go that direction. However, my best tanks have always done a 4-5g water change every week. Coincidence? Maybe, but what I'm currently doing isn't working either.

So my new plan is kind of drastic but I'm going to go back to what has worked for me in the past. Less sand, more flow (getting the new Ice Cap 1k pumps to replace my MP10s), less rock and more water changes. I'm going to remove the UV sterilizer for the time being as well.

After scrubbing all the rocks, I'm going to redo my rockwork and get as much off the sand as I can. This is my last ditch effort before giving up on this tank.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Just made 10 gallons of RO. Water going into the unit was 237, after RO and before DI was 3 and then 0 after DI.

So unless something serious is getting through, I don't think source water is the issue.

I have ordered new salt and plan to do a 30% water change using the new salt. I highly doubt my current salt is an issue though. I haven't done any water changes in quite some time. I do wonder if this isn't part of the problem. I know there are plenty of people who run zero water changes and the hobby itself wants to go that direction. However, my best tanks have always done a 4-5g water change every week. Coincidence? Maybe, but what I'm currently doing isn't working either.

So my new plan is kind of drastic but I'm going to go back to what has worked for me in the past. Less sand, more flow (getting the new Ice Cap 1k pumps to replace my MP10s), less rock and more water changes. I'm going to remove the UV sterilizer for the time being as well.

After scrubbing all the rocks, I'm going to redo my rockwork and get as much off the sand as I can. This is my last ditch effort before giving up on this tank.

Good plan. Really.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Just made 10 gallons of RO. Water going into the unit was 237, after RO and before DI was 3 and then 0 after DI.

So unless something serious is getting through, I don't think source water is the issue.

I have ordered new salt and plan to do a 30% water change using the new salt. I highly doubt my current salt is an issue though. I haven't done any water changes in quite some time. I do wonder if this isn't part of the problem. I know there are plenty of people who run zero water changes and the hobby itself wants to go that direction. However, my best tanks have always done a 4-5g water change every week. Coincidence? Maybe, but what I'm currently doing isn't working either.

So my new plan is kind of drastic but I'm going to go back to what has worked for me in the past. Less sand, more flow (getting the new Ice Cap 1k pumps to replace my MP10s), less rock and more water changes. I'm going to remove the UV sterilizer for the time being as well.

After scrubbing all the rocks, I'm going to redo my rockwork and get as much off the sand as I can. This is my last ditch effort before giving up on this tank.

Any contributing reason you think UV isn't helping with progress?

 

[rtparty]

Any contributing reason you think UV isn't helping with progress?

I'm questioning if the Jebao stuff isn't leaching something. So by taking it offline I can thoroughly inspect everything and see if problems continue. Not exactly scientific but worth a shot IMO. Easy enough to put it back in since all I'll be doing is taking the pump out.

I also haven't seen any type of dinos for quite a while now. Not that the UV doesn't have other benefits but I'm trying to figure out what is going on here. So eliminating unnecessary items may find something.

Part 2 of my plan is to replace all Fiji and Pukani with Tonga branch. I love that look and it takes out of a lot of dry rock problems. It also has some drawbacks so it's a risk to reward move

 

[reeferfoxx]

I'm questioning if the Jebao stuff isn't leaching something. So by taking it offline I can thoroughly inspect everything and see if problems continue. Not exactly scientific but worth a shot IMO. Easy enough to put it back in since all I'll be doing is taking the pump out.

I also haven't seen any type of dinos for quite a while now. Not that the UV doesn't have other benefits but I'm trying to figure out what is going on here. So eliminating unnecessary items may find something.

Part 2 of my plan is to replace all Fiji and Pukani with Tonga branch. I love that look and it takes out of a lot of dry rock problems. It also has some drawbacks so it's a risk to reward move

Fair enough. Whats your plan for the rock change? All at once or slowly?

 

[rtparty]

Fair enough. Whats your plan for the rock change? All at once or slowly?

If I can't get the GHA under control with the new regiment and added snails, I'll remove a rock a week maybe and put in the new stuff.

I should probably buy the Tonga branch now and get it "curing" in my garbage can for saltwater. It really doesn't even need a cure since there is nothing dead on it. A good rinse and it is good to go in the tank. I should probably order Dr Tim's as well so I can add some more diversity. Maybe even Miracle Mud and I'll put that in the sump.

This just became expensive! Hopefully the MP10s can cover it all.

 

[reeferfoxx]

If I can't get the GHA under control with the new regiment and added snails, I'll remove a rock a week maybe and put in the new stuff.

I should probably buy the Tonga branch now and get it "curing" in my garbage can for saltwater. It really doesn't even need a cure since there is nothing dead on it.

I would remove the rock and brush the algae off in a separate container. Snails don't like eating bushels of hair algae. They like the small pregrowth nubs.

The new tonga branch should be cured. Even the BRS or Macro bone white rock still leeches a lot of phosphates. You'll get hair algae with that also.

 

[rtparty]

I would remove the rock and brush the algae off in a separate container. Snails don't like eating bushels of hair algae. They like the small pregrowth nubs.

The new tonga branch should be cured. Even the BRS or Macro bone white rock still leeches a lot of phosphates. You'll get hair algae with that also.

Yes, doing the scrub in the next couple days. Need to find the 3-4 hours it will take.

I question the Tonga leaching anything. My Tonga has almost zero GHA on it even though everything else does including pumps, sand, overflow and snails. So it's either not leaching much or the GHA doesn't like to attach to it for some reason?

 

[reeferfoxx]

Yes, doing the scrub in the next couple days. Need to find the 3-4 hours it will take.

I question the Tonga leaching anything. My Tonga has almost zero GHA on it even though everything else does including pumps, sand, overflow and snails. So it's either not leaching much or the GHA doesn't like to attach to it for some reason?

Interesting. Must be a detritus build up in the other rock that tonga wouldn't really possess.

Do you have any sources for bristleworms? Though unsightly, they do help keep rocks clean.

 

[rtparty]

Interesting. Must be a detritus build up in the other rock that tonga wouldn't really possess.

Do you have any sources for bristleworms? Though unsightly, they do help keep rocks clean.

I've seen bristleworms here and there. I know some hate them but they are a great addition to any CUC. I doubt I have enough of them though.

I've thought about detritus building up but don't know where. There is some in the sump but nothing crazy. If it's getting in the rocks, that could be part of the problem. The Pukani is full of holes and crevices for it to get into. Fiji isn't quite as bad but still there.

Quite often I turkey baste the rocks to keep stuff from settling but if it gets in deep enough, it's going to disappear and rot. Hopefully the scrubbing, rinse and redo of rockwork will help things out. I think I'll pull the Pukani out since it's the largest piece and most likely to be filled with crap.

 

[mcarroll]

I would remove the rock and brush the algae off in a separate container. Snails don't like eating bushels of hair algae. They like the small pregrowth nubs.

This.

@rtparty when you replace rocks, just make sure you keep up with any algae the snails don't eat with plucking, peroxide spot-treatments, etc. Be watching for it to try spreading to the new rocks. Hopefully it won't, but it might.....don't allow it.

Adding more snails would be OK at any time you think it's called for too.

 

[mcarroll]

Quite often I turkey baste the rocks to keep stuff from settling but if it gets in deep enough, it's going to disappear and rot.

If you find detritus on your rocks and in your sand, then it's definitely time to upgrade flow to something stronger. If you have a spare pump like a maxijet, use that in your hand to "blow off" the rocks and sand instead of a baster – much faster and usually more effective.

 

[brandon429]

should post an updated March 1st full tank shot here, curious to see what subtle aspects of it w show as to why this invasion wasn’t beaten a while ago

With an updated full tank shot, surprising details can be seen to the point params aren’t needed to be known


For example
In all these pages- no test rock work/proof established. Seen only partial tank work in various portions, which subjects the whole system to an untested eradication method under your particular home variables (whereas making a single test rock comply, then upscaling, never does this)

Test rock might be your swing vote...test rock verification is core critical in turning around anchored invasions in non nano reefs. It’s done before you act on the whole system

And
In that pic, if it shows a sandbed I’ll be checking the cross section portion and corners of the tank for details, then I’d try to envision if that sandbed would cloud if you reached in and grabbed two handfuls and then dropped it down from the top of the tank. If so, we just found your invasion fuel source, no params needed to know so far and that’s only two visuals


One of the challenges peroxide method faces is growback, not the initial kill. Enter test rocking and rasping...fixes growback...never scrubbing which distributes the invader into rock pores. Part of the continuum that makes some people quit the hobby is the massive full tank attempts that consume whole weekends, $$, and in four months it’s all back.

It’s possible to reverse engineer the entire sequence, start by making one rock comply before acting on the whole system we found to truly cut down the growback instances

Params-set them to what corals want, test rocks tell how to deal with an anchored invader that behaves differently on your block than it would on Paul’s block.

 

[rtparty]

An updated FTS will show lots of GHA and a very sad looking tank.

I have no doubts that the dry rock and sand are the issue. I love the look of sand but I'll slowly remove most of it, if not all, over 5-6 water changes.

I've ordered new Ice Cap gyre 1K pumps and some miracle mud. I have the water ready for the massive scrub job and just need to find time. If the weather is as bad as they are predicting, I will have time tomorrow and Sunday. I'd prefer to do it tomorrow morning and then I can run to my LFS and get more snails in hopes they'll eat the shorter strands left over.

There is no way to get ahead of this mess without a scrub at this point. Yes, I probably could have, should have done things differently but I was far more concerned about dinos coming back than the GHA taking over like this. I also had zero reason to believe the sand and rock would be leaching this heavily. They never did in the first place.

Unfortunately, BRS is out of Tonga branch currently so the Pukani removal is all I'll do for now. Although, the rocks covered the worst are Fiji. So maybe 2 of the 4 Fiji rocks will come out instead? This would open up more space for better flow as well.

 

[brandon429]

glad you took the action for sure, at least a good physical chop in the way of scrubbing is a forced mass remover...this makes preventative steps have to work less since algae are self perpetuating outside of tank parameters in many ways...they can feed in clean water as resident bacteria make food for them, and they also trap their own detritus in fronds for on site feed and degredation, this explains why so many tanks get algae issues even with params well done beforehand.

the scrub isn't so bad if you could use peroxide afterwards...not on the bulk algae, but on the clean or scrubbed spot as a cell burner...little tweak like that next time sure could help boost. right this second, some type of brown or mixed green gha is quite prominent on some of my new frag bases around the disc area, ive been lazy at removal but when I get time im attacking the actual growths and holding steady with the rest of the tank, those frags were not purple coralline/competing real estate, they were open for the taking as nice new polished white frag bases so that algae signals nothing bad to me, and this could have been the case in your system too. a little up front cheat gardening when possible/headache remover but still a cheat agreed.