Alkalinity/Calcium Daily drop with no livestock

[Anirban]

First thing to clear anyone who is reading this thread...
Never start your tank with probiotic reef salt. If you are then you are just dumping your money down the drain. It contains probiotics but it also has amino and vitamins. I dont think you really want to feed an empty tank those things. I suggest shifting to it once you have a cycled tank and you are going to maintain ULNS and a lot of SPS. Otherwise dont.

Now the bacteria and carbon dosing. Do you currently dose any form of bacteria/probiotics and carbon source? Without dosing there should not be that much of bacteria in the tank. What you feed and how much?

 

[GoVols]

First thing to clear anyone who is reading this thread...
Never start your tank with probiotic reef salt. If you are then you are just dumping your money down the drain. It contains probiotics but it also has amino and vitamins. I dont think you really want to feed an empty tank those things. I suggest shifting to it once you have a cycled tank and you are going to maintain ULNS and a lot of SPS. Otherwise dont.

Now the bacteria and carbon dosing. Do you currently dose any form of bacteria/probiotics and carbon source? Without dosing there should not be that much of bacteria in the tank. What you feed and how much?

I don't know he is carbon dosing right now but this is his food and how many times a day.

I feed like 40 pellets of ocean nutrition formula2 at a time for the 8 fish two to three times per day plus a cube of brine shrimp or mysis soaked with .5ml selcon. This is heavy right?

 

[Anirban]

He has a Redsea reefer 525 and he stopped dosing probiotics and carbon back in November but he is still seeing slimy bacteria in his filter socks and has very high alk and calc consumption even though he has no corals and minimal coralline algae.

My first guess will be cyano/dino. I dont know how he measure PO4 but excess feeding generally dont help a lot. Also possibly the algae is holding those nutrient. Does he use GFO? The tank is new so I will suggest keep it simple and half dose the probiotics and carbon source. It will compete for nutrient source with the algae and slowly bring the tank back on track. It will take some time. When he stopped dosing he took out the good competitors and promoted the bad ones. Its a bit off balance but as its new and not that much corals we can slowly tune this up. But again it will take time.

 

[Anirban]

I don't know he is carbon dosing right now but this is his food and how many times a day.

I feed like 40 pellets of ocean nutrition formula2 at a time for the 8 fish two to three times per day plus a cube of brine shrimp or mysis soaked with .5ml selcon. This is heavy right?

Yeah thats heavy and loaded with more PO4 than NO3. Still he is not reading PO4 which means his algae are eating those and growing. I will not feed anything frozen till I get the balance back. He can try increase NO3 by dosing KNO3 for the time being or need to wait and let the ecosystem take its own path.

 

[GoVols]

Yeah thats heavy and loaded with more PO4 than NO3. Still he is not reading PO4 which means his algae are eating those and growing. I will not feed anything frozen till I get the balance back. He can try increase NO3 by dosing KNO3 for the time being or need to wait and let the ecosystem take its own path.

Yes, I figured the algae could be holding in the PO4.
Are you telling him to use Pro Bio-S with NP Pro and start at half dose of each. From my memory the full dose is 1 drop per 25 gallons.

 

[Anirban]

Yes, I figured the algae could be holding in the PO4.
Are you telling him to use Pro Bio-S with NP Pro and start at half dose of each. From my memory the full dose is 1 drop per 25 gallons.

Yeah, I want to give the algae competition for the nutrients. You are right 1 drop for every 27 US gallon.

 

[GoVols]

Yeah, I want to give the algae competition for the nutrients. You are right 1 drop for every 27 US gallon.

Thank You so much and have a good night.

 

[Myka]

Your tank is 6 months old, add some fish!!! The corals will thank you.

You don't need to be adding ANY Aquaforest products. You shouldn't be adding the ProBioS or NP Pro because you have no nutrients to get rid of. The "brown stuff" algae you're seeing - add some clean up crew to get rid of it. Right now you're in a "fake" reef state - if you start to make it more natural by adding fish and creating natural waste, and using clean up crew to naturally clean your tank then life will be easier.

I see lots of people making this mistake where they start adding a bunch of products to new tanks that have little to no livestock in them. They add this for nutrient reduction and that for nutrient reduction, and the N and P are "zero", and they wonder why everything is dying. Don't add stuff to your tank unless there is a NEED for it. Right now your tank needs fish poop. So add some fish poop.

 

[Anirban]

I think the tank already has quite a lot of fish as he is feeding heavily. The point which @GoVols and others are pointing out that there are nutrients available but the algae are holding them up and feeding on them. In this case because he don't dose any kind of bacteria the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria population is very low in the tank. Adding any kind of bacteria which can use NO3 and PO4 will compete with the available nutrient there making it harder for the algae to survive. So, if he can clean those rocks and start dosing (you dont need AF) any kind of bacteria which can use the NO3 and PO4 will help in the process. Also, as suggested above try to add some CUC which can clean some of those algae. But in case its cyano or diatom CUC will not put a dent. You need to achieve a ecological balance and it will come overtime with good balanced N2 cycle and regular maintenance.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Ok so the take away from the last several posts are to do the following:

1. Dose 1/2 strength AF NP pro and Pro bioS ...so for my tank that would be 2 drops of each every day.
2. Dose KNO3. What ppm would you recommend to set the levels at?
3. Add cuc. I have been QT'ing everything so I only have 2 small emerald crabs and about 3 astrea snails from my frag tank ready to go.

What about the small automated water changes (7500ml per night). Continue or stop?

 

[Anirban]

Ok so the take away from the last several posts are to do the following:

1. Dose 1/2 strength AF NP pro and Pro bioS ...so for my tank that would be 2 drops of each every day.
2. Dose KNO3. What ppm would you recommend to set the levels at?
3. Add cuc. I have been QT'ing everything so I only have 2 small emerald crabs and about 3 astrea snails from my frag tank ready to go.

What about the small automated water changes (7500ml per night). Continue or stop?

1. I will start dosing the NP Pro and Pro bio S 1/2 dose .
2. For KNO3 I will read instruction from this thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/potassium-nitrate-spectracide-stump-remover-dosing-steps.215730/
3. Finally add the clean up crew ASAP it will help you a lot.

I personally will suggest not doing the daily water changes at least when the tank is not stabilised yet. You can do that once your system is not jumping around and more stable chemically and biologically.

 

[Brew12]

I think the tank already has quite a lot of fish as he is feeding heavily. The point which @GoVols and others are pointing out that there are nutrients available but the algae are holding them up and feeding on them. In this case because he don't dose any kind of bacteria the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria population is very low in the tank. Adding any kind of bacteria which can use NO3 and PO4 will compete with the available nutrient there making it harder for the algae to survive. So, if he can clean those rocks and start dosing (you dont need AF) any kind of bacteria which can use the NO3 and PO4 will help in the process. Also, as suggested above try to add some CUC which can clean some of those algae. But in case its cyano or diatom CUC will not put a dent. You need to achieve a ecological balance and it will come overtime with good balanced N2 cycle and regular maintenance.

I want to make sure we get back to where this thread started. His system is consuming large amounts of Alk and Calc even though he has no corals and a questionable amount of Coralline. If he adds corals to the tank they do not do well.
I believe he has too much bacteria growing in his tank which is causing his Alk issue. This is supported by the rapid slimy build up in his filter socks. I believe it is also contributing to his low nutrients. It is possible that this is resolving on its own as he is now starting to see some algae growth. Since you joined the thread late, I want to make sure you are keeping this in consideration with your recommendations.

 

[Anirban]

I want to make sure we get back to where this thread started. His system is consuming large amounts of Alk and Calc even though he has no corals and a questionable amount of Coralline. If he adds corals to the tank they do not do well.
I believe he has too much bacteria growing in his tank which is causing his Alk issue. This is supported by the rapid slimy build up in his filter socks. I believe it is also contributing to his low nutrients. It is possible that this is resolving on its own as he is now starting to see some algae growth. Since you joined the thread late, I want to make sure you are keeping this in consideration with your recommendations.

Yeah, I read those things including the filter socks clogging part. In my personal opinion I have never seen a bacterial bloom lasting over 3 months without any source of carbon or replenishing of bacteria. You have much more experience than me but did you ever hear anything like that. So, my guess is its possibly cyano and diatoms which are causing the issues. Also he loaded the system with nutrients when he used probiotic salt at the start as it also contain amino acids. So the system is always a nutrient rich system. I don't know if he ever dosed Bio S which AF recommends when starting a new tank it helps in establishing the nitrifying bacterial population and helps in cycling.

 

[GoVols]

Yeah, I read those things including the filter socks clogging part. In my personal opinion I have never seen a bacterial bloom lasting over 3 months without any source of carbon or replenishing of bacteria. You have much more experience than me but did you ever hear anything like that. So, my guess is its possibly cyano and diatoms which are causing the issues. Also he loaded the system with nutrients when he used probiotic salt at the start as it also contain amino acids. So the system is always a nutrient rich system. I don't know if he ever dosed Bio S which AF recommends when starting a new tank it helps in establishing the nitrifying bacterial population and helps in cycling.

That was my concern.
If he started the full blown ProBio method too soon with a empty tank, could all the goodies have kicked in some cyano and now the heavy feeding is the new fuel for it and the algae?
He said he was seeing the slimy back when he was using the P-Salt.

 

[anit77]

I want to make sure we get back to where this thread started. His system is consuming large amounts of Alk and Calc even though he has no corals and a questionable amount of Coralline. If he adds corals to the tank they do not do well.
I believe he has too much bacteria growing in his tank which is causing his Alk issue. This is supported by the rapid slimy build up in his filter socks. I believe it is also contributing to his low nutrients. It is possible that this is resolving on its own as he is now starting to see some algae growth. Since you joined the thread late, I want to make sure you are keeping this in consideration with your recommendations.

He also stated that the layer causing the discoloration on the rock is hard and will not scrub off. Which leads me to think there could be at least some precip going on. And now with his last post above stating he's doing 2% daily water changes, that alone will drive nutrients down considerably in a sparsely stock tank.

I would also like to add that in addition to all of the AF products he was using that as recently as mid last month he was dosing the following... "Added another dosing pump to dose pottasium, Aminos, Iron and H2O2." Per the thread on ARC. I understand that many of you my not have the time to read that thread I linked. But I think if Jeff could post a brief synopsis here from startup in September till now, listing all the products used too, it will go a long way to getting a better picture of what could be going on now.

 

[Anirban]

That was my concern.
If he started the full blown ProBio method too soon with a empty tank, could all the goodies have kicked in some cyano and now the heavy feeding is the new fuel for it and the algae?
He said he was seeing the slimy back when he was using the P-Salt.

You are right it can fuel. I am more concerned now without any probiotic dosing or carbon dosing how the bacteria can bloom so much? How long a bloom exist in a common tank a few days or possibly a week right.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

He also stated that the layer causing the discoloration on the rock is hard and will not scrub off. Which leads me to think there could be at least some precip going on. And now with his last post above stating he's doing 2% daily water changes, that alone will drive nutrients down considerably in a sparsely stock tank.

I would also like to add that in addition to all of the AF products he was using that as recently as mid last month he was dosing the following... "Added another dosing pump to dose pottasium, Aminos, Iron and H2O2." Per the thread on ARC. I understand that many of you my not have the time to read that thread I linked. But I think if Jeff could post a brief synopsis here from startup in September till now, listing all the products used too, it will go a long way to getting a better picture of what could be going on now.

I was dosing those for a short period of time at 1/2 the recommended dose. I stopped that doser about 2 weeks ago. So it only ran for a short period and during that period of time I really didn't notice any differences.

So I measured Nitrates:

Frag tank - ~6ppm
Display tank - maybe 0.25ppm probably less.

Read the Nitrate post from above. I have KNO3 on hand from my planted tanks. I can easily dose. It appears that an initial target would be to bring it to 2ppm?

 

[Anirban]

He also stated that the layer causing the discoloration on the rock is hard and will not scrub off. Which leads me to think there could be at least some precip going on. And now with his last post above stating he's doing 2% daily water changes, that alone will drive nutrients down considerably in a sparsely stock tank.

I would also like to add that in addition to all of the AF products he was using that as recently as mid last month he was dosing the following... "Added another dosing pump to dose pottasium, Aminos, Iron and H2O2." Per the thread on ARC. I understand that many of you my not have the time to read that thread I linked. But I think if Jeff could post a brief synopsis here from startup in September till now, listing all the products used too, it will go a long way to getting a better picture of what could be going on now.

Oh man this is getting too complicated to understand for my poor brain. Why in a empty tank he is dosing so many things????
I need a full detail of whatever thing was dosed in that tank and when? Also when he stopped dosing all these? Detail maintenance schedule and filtration process, livestock, lights and also current dosing schedule. @Jeff Miotke

 

[GoVols]

I think if Jeff could post a brief synopsis here from startup in September till now, listing all the products used too, it will go a long way to getting a better picture of what could be going on now.

+1

 

[Brew12]

Yeah, I read those things including the filter socks clogging part. In my personal opinion I have never seen a bacterial bloom lasting over 3 months without any source of carbon or replenishing of bacteria. You have much more experience than me but did you ever hear anything like that. So, my guess is its possibly cyano and diatoms which are causing the issues. Also he loaded the system with nutrients when he used probiotic salt at the start as it also contain amino acids. So the system is always a nutrient rich system. I don't know if he ever dosed Bio S which AF recommends when starting a new tank it helps in establishing the nitrifying bacterial population and helps in cycling.

Nope, I've never seen anything like it either. Just wanted to make sure you were taking it into consideration. This one has been very baffling to me.