Alkalinity drops 0.7 dKH in 10 hours

Discussion in 'Reef Chemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley' started by Literallyhydro, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    Interesting how even the time of day you test affects your reading. I've lately been testing at the same time each day to avoid misinformation from different readouts. If I check my Alk first thing in the morning, it's quite a bit higher than when I check at 6:45PM every day.
     

  2. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    I feel the only use of my post numbers thus far is to see how accurately the hanna and salifert tests are tracking for me. I actually interpret my results pretty linear thus far. But since I have modified my Kalk bin ratios during the test period and started to dose now because I'm at my low threshold of 8.7 ALK, I'm curious if I will next start to see a daily higher ALK in the AM than in the pm the next few days because nothing effecting ALk in my system will change directly from my input anymore ***unless i get too far from 8.7 and need to intervene.
    As I expected the past few days my ALK dropped steadily once I diluted my KALK bin down to about 50% saturated. When its fully saturated I seem to steady climb over a few weeks with out any dosing of ALL directly. Meaning my high evaporation allows the replenishment ATO water to provide more than 100% of what I'm using. The down side is I'm adding more CA as well which is why I have to cut the ATO to 50% saturated and then dose only ALK to the system other wise CA climbs even faster than ALK climbs in my set up. And its already too high at 470. Due to the fact that my Sulphur denitrator uses up ALK and not any CA from the water column daily and steadily via its natural processes. Its creates an imbalance in natural calcification process by corals that I must account for in my system. Remember, as Randy says in one of his papers if i remember right, there is only so much room for ALK n CA marbles in the bin. If you have too many of one, there is not enough room for the other to fit and why there is a table to show how to correct an imbalance in the ratios, once considering which of them is in what order in relation to natural ratios. For example my low ALK high CA. Or other possiblities are high ALK and high CA, or both low, or opposite of what I have high ALK low CA.

    The natural balance of ALK and CA line matches up as follows
    11.2=440.... 9.8=430.....8.2 =420 ....7.8=410, ...... 5.6= 400.....
     
  3. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Just remember that alk always declines or stays steady, it never rises on its own, so any time of day effect either represents simple decline, or it reflects when you are dosing in relation to that decline.

    If you are dosing steady 24/7, or dosing mostly at night, you will often see a peak in the morning since most of the demand seems to happen during the day and not at night.
     
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  4. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    Is the swing that occurs from morning to night something I should try to stabilize? Or should I focus on the day to day stability?
     
  5. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Depends on how big it is, and how much you think that amount matters. Some folks do dose mostly when the demand is taking place to stabilize it as best they can. :)
     
  6. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    I've been running out of reagents so quickly with how frequently I'm testing ALK I suppose it is better to learn the trend of my tank so I can get everything perfectly dialed in.

    I'm going to start testing twice a day, morning and night. From day to day my system is pretty stable if tested at the same time every day. It consumes about 35mL of ALK solution a day. I have it dosed 7 times throughout the photo period.

    If my ALK reads higher in the morning, I'll adjust the dosing times until I match the two test times.


    Edit: alright, so first test of the day complete.

    8:30 AM - 9.3dKH
    I'll update around 7 PM with another test.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  7. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 checks
    8:30 am =none
    5:30 pm =none
    3-4-18 am test
    9:30 am =first test salifert =8.9,/Hanna 9.0/ second Hanna =9.1,
    6:30 pm =first test sailfert 8.9/Hanna 8.7 / second Hanna =8.8
    3-5-18 am test
    9:45am first sailfert 8.6/first hanna 8.7/ second hanna 8.7
    6:45 pm first sailfert 8.3/ first hanna 8.5/ second hanna 8.6 ** doser put back online at 80 ml/day, and 25ml of manual addition ALK
    3-6-18 am test
    9:15am salifert 8.4/first hanna 8.6/second hanna 8.5 *no doser adjustments or manual additions of anything.
    PM TBD
     
  8. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 checks
    8:30 am =none
    5:30 pm =none
    3-4-18 am test
    9:30 am =first test salifert =8.9,/Hanna 9.0/ second Hanna =9.1,
    6:30 pm =first test sailfert 8.9/Hanna 8.7 / second Hanna =8.8
    3-5-18 am test
    9:45am first sailfert 8.6/first hanna 8.7/ second hanna 8.7
    6:45 pm first sailfert 8.3/ first hanna 8.5/ second hanna 8.6 ** doser put back online at 80 ml/day, and 25ml of manual addition ALK
    3-6-18 am test
    9:15am salifert 8.4/first hanna 8.6/second hanna 8.5 *no doser adjustments or manual additions of anything.
    8:00 pm salifert 8.3/ first hanna 8.6/ second hanna 8.5 *no adjustments
     
  9. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    8:30 AM - 9.3 dKH (Hanna)
    7:00 PM - 9.0 dKH (Hanna)

    I will also start updating with information from a Salifert test kit when I can get around to buying one. For now, all I have to work with is the Hanna checker.
     
  10. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 checks
    8:30 am =none
    5:30 pm =none
    3-4-18 am test
    9:30 am =first test salifert =8.9,/Hanna 9.0/ second Hanna =9.1,
    6:30 pm =first test sailfert 8.9/Hanna 8.7 / second Hanna =8.8
    3-5-18 am test
    9:45am first sailfert 8.6/first hanna 8.7/ second hanna 8.7
    6:45 pm first sailfert 8.3/ first hanna 8.5/ second hanna 8.6 ** doser put back online at 80 ml/day, and 25ml of manual addition ALK
    3-6-18 am test
    9:15am salifert 8.4/first hanna 8.6/second hanna 8.5 *no doser adjustments or manual additions of anything.
    8:00 pm salifert 8.3/ first hanna 8.6/ second hanna 8.5 *no adjustments
    3-7-18 am test
    9:00 am sailfert 8.3/ hanna first 8.5/ hanna second 8.6 ** added 50 ml ALK doser to 120 ml/ day
    PM TDB may only have one or two hanna test kit worth of reagent left. I have lots of Salifert left

    I'm almost out of hanna reagent so ill return my doser to 120 ml per day till i get to 8.7 and consider the test data my result as of this evening. I'm going to dose 50 ml of ALK manually to increase alk. I suspect My hanna reads a bit high but pretty consistent and I think my salifert test is close to 8.2 this morning so I'm still not adding enough VIA my doser at this point and my live stock matter more to me than this test does. I'll up date what my final thought is soon as reagent run out on hanna with a accuracy i found which honesty looks pretty good. but i think it reads high.
     
  11. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    BRS has them very affordably as does amazon.
     
  12. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    I will pick up a Salifert test kit in the near future, likely from Amazon.
     
  13. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    7:00 PM 9.2 ALK.

    According to my Hanna checker, it's slowly climbing. I'll check again tomorrow, if it continues to rise I'll reduce the dosage slightly.
     
  14. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 checks
    8:30 am =none
    5:30 pm =none
    3-4-18 am test
    9:30 am =first test salifert =8.9,/Hanna 9.0/ second Hanna =9.1,
    6:30 pm =first test sailfert 8.9/Hanna 8.7 / second Hanna =8.8
    3-5-18 am test
    9:45am first sailfert 8.6/first hanna 8.7/ second hanna 8.7
    6:45 pm first sailfert 8.3/ first hanna 8.5/ second hanna 8.6 ** doser put back online at 80 ml/day, and 25ml of manual addition ALK
    3-6-18 am test
    9:15am salifert 8.4/first hanna 8.6/second hanna 8.5 *no doser adjustments or manual additions of anything.
    8:00 pm salifert 8.3/ first hanna 8.6/ second hanna 8.5 *no adjustments
    3-7-18 am test
    9:00 am sailfert 8.3/ hanna first 8.5/ hanna second 8.6 ** added 50 ml ALK doser to 120 ml/ day
    PM 6:15 salifert 8.3/hanna 8.6/ no second test. ***I did not change my does this am so i will now and it will effect am readings. i got busy workmen on my qt system for some incoming fish i have ordered.
    TDB may only have one or two hanna test kit worth of reagent left. I have lots of Salifert left
    I'm almost out of hanna reagent so ill return my doser to 120 ml per day till i get to 8.7 and consider the test data my result as of this post. I'm going to dose 50 ml of ALK manually to increase alk. I suspect My hanna reads a bit high but pretty consistent and I think my salifert test is close to 8.2 this morning so I'm still not adding enough VIA my doser at this point and my live stock matter more to me than this test does. I'll up date what my final thought is soon as reagent run out on hanna with a accuracy i found which honesty looks pretty good. but i think it reads high.
     
  15. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    -I wouldn't go over 9.5 if you intend to grow good colored Acros, or have very low nutrients. From my experience. Anything over that leaves no real room for error incase of an over dose to say 10.5. which would be the limit I think things might survive thru. If i had an ALK monitor I may push things a bit higher hoping the monitor would alarm me before it got out of hand and except the extra risk for the extra growth. assuming my colors also stayed in check with that high of ALK. I seem to do best color wise at lower ALK levels personally with acceptable growth as well. 8.7 is my comfort zone personally at this time. I could care less what Red sea literature says about 12 DKH n so forth. thats crazy and a death sentence to most any reefer except the highest skill level in my opinion. Some things do live in that high of ALK, I have found out, but most do not and there was no benefit i saw at that level. I think its silly they even post that in there literature.
     
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  16. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    So your Hanna checker is reading fairly precise, I am itching to see how mine compares to Salifert.

    If Ieave a water sample in a sealed container for a day or so, would that affect the ALK reading? I can also have WWC test my water to cross check my Hanna.

    I could collect the water at the same time as I test every day to try to maintain consistency.

    Edit: since I'm dosing 35 ml daily and the system is seeing a slow upswing, should I drop the dose to, say, 20 ml a day until it's around 8.5-8.7 and then bring the dose to 30 ml?

    This is my first time taking alkalinity seriously, and using a dosing pump to maintain it. So any feedback on my actions are much appreciated. I don't want to kill my acros, even if they are still just half inch sticks, they're quickly becoming my favorites.
     
  17. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    I'd cut dosage in half till your sure you need that much. I think a sealed container is ok for 24 hours on a ALK test but not preferable. I think when using a hanna as a sole means of ALK measuring, i would as a rule of thumb never react to a number that was not exactly what i expected. if it was not what i expected, I would double test to confirm. I have found after hundreds of Salifert tests I'm rather confident in results it gives me. If anything was like 1 full DKH more than I expected, I would double test and still only react with a 50% correction at most and wait 24 hours. most of that issue happens after large water changes or a system malfunction happens and then you in panic mode and running around testing and dumping and cause more issues because of some bum test result on a unreliable test kit. Another reason I target 8.7 is I can make up salt mix to that DKH very easy standard out of the bucket with FRITZ RMP which is my choice salt ATM. Incase I needed to do a huge WC in an emergency i would not NUKE my ARCOS with 11 DKH from REF crystals or RED SEA PRO for example.. great salts but too high a ALK for an emergency water change. GREAT for if you use them to maintain levels with 10 % weekly water changes, instead of dosing. not ok for full water changes. I never under stood that concept till last year, and I still think many folks don't. Its not in the instructions anywhere and no one seems to give that advise. Post agree to this post if you agree please. Am I the only one who thinks this way???
     
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  18. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    Alright, I went ahead and lowered the dose.

    That makes a lot of sense, to aim for Alk that is easy get with your salt mix. I really need to check the Alk reading on my RSCP salt. Maybe I should consider switching over when I run out of salt. Unfortunately, that's a while from now. Have you heard anything about Brightwell's Neomarine salt? World Wide lately gave me two different opinions.. One is to get Instant Ocean and dose it up to the desired numbers, and the other is to use Brightwell salt. They tell me Brightwell is what they run in their tanks. Any opinions on either?
     
  19. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    Not sure. i use regular IO for emergency WC as it has lower ALK as well.
    Salts for NON doser people who wish to keep a SPS tank would be IORC RSCP
    SALTS for EMERGENCY WC for lower ALK SPS tanks like i prefer might be FRITZ RPM, IO, RED SEA regular bucket "NOT CP". Julian sprung TWO LITTLE FISHES "Acurasea " Which i do like actually, nice stuff, lower ALK and natural levels is there selling point.

    I can't speak for other salts as I have not tested them. But I do know some folks worry about FRITZ possibly using "cheap MAG" and not storing well. I have no issues to report and use it in 48 hours at most. usually in 6 hours.
    Reef crystals mixing horribly common issue. I hear fosters smith "live aquaria /divers den" have a similar salt to FRITZ but never tried it. I hear Tropic Marin is awesome stuff don't know which salts have what levels. and no interest in probiotic enhanced salts. heard things enough said.
    Severlal other brands I have little or no experience in to make judgements.
    I think it matters if you make RO or RODI. I think it matters what the temp it is at. I think it matters if you properly aerate the RoDI first then add salt. Matters to add salt to super highly stirred water slowly can't over mix the water while adding like 2000 GPH + stir pump. I have tried things like boosting PH a bit with KALK before I add salt n so forth, with no real worth while results.
    Things like all that can effect how a companies salt mixes. I also try not to store saltwater too long as i have seen RSCP drop ALK big time in a month if stored in a sealed unstirred BARREL for example in use with a AUTO water change system. I came back and i don't even wanna say what the levels are in the barrel at 30+ days but it was real bad and I stopped doing that immediately and learned alot about Salt mix and whats in my mix when i make it up from that time on.
    My main reason for any salt mix is it is affordable, clean, consistent, and makes what matches parameters my system. Many folks test ALK and other parameters, before they do the Water change. Which is good advise, unless you can afford a mistake.

    Hot salt is a whole new thing now as well thats supposed to be interesting. Can't speak about it. I'm not educated on it. New way of making SW MIX supposedly.
     
  20. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    Today was water change day, and since I use RSCP, the newer water had a higher alkalinity than my tank.

    My ALK today is 9.2. Since yesterday was the same even though I lowered the dose, it must be the effect of the higher Alk water.

    We'll see the effects of the lower dose tomorrow then.

    And I only did a 10% water change, 15 gallons. My current regimen is weekly 10%. I use 5 gallons of the old water to do water changes on my 20 gallon soft coral reef.
     
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