Alkalinity drops 0.7 dKH in 10 hours

Discussion in 'Reef Chemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley' started by Literallyhydro, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Rick.45cal

    Rick.45cal Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    @Literallyhydro I dose 9 ml of NO3PO4X 24/7, protein skimming and the tank is also constantly changing water via a doser that operates 24 hours a day (2.24 gallons a day)
     

  2. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    Thank you for the information. Seems the only thing I'm doing differently is the water change schedule. I hope my tank will someday be as nice, where my fuzzy sticks are slightly larger fuzzy sticks
     
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  3. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Question - how can you be sure its not your monitor thats reading incorrectly - since 2 tests are showing similar values different from your monitor. Im sure the monitor is calibrated somehow - but it seems odd.
     
  4. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    I for the longest time believed the Hanna alkalinity checker was the best choice for testing. Now I'm seeing quite a few people say they are off the mark. Maybe I should consider titration tests instead.
     
  5. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    I trust my Salifert kit. I typically used each manufacture I could find when I switch manufacture of a test kit due to expiration or something to get my mind around what color change I'm looking for in the kit and how they compare to each other. I have been most comfortable with the salifert line of test kits and now that I use them the most frequently, I recognize the color changes easier on their kits than ones I am not as accustomed to using like red sea for example. I do not run them against a control but it can't be to hard to find or make a ALK reference solution. I think again its about constant more so than the exact number your holding to me. I'm still very curious about the amount of ALK added at once, and how frequent as well as when it is added in the light cycle and thus how it effects PH,coral growth, and stability in my system.
     
  6. Rick.45cal

    Rick.45cal Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    The KHG actually agreed consistently with the salifert test which is an acid titration that is known to be a reliable methodology for testing alkalinity. The KHG is also an acid based titration and was giving me identical results. Meanwhile my Hanna checker (which I had used reigiously for at least 8 months) read 1 dKH lower consistently. I also had a new in the box hanna checker that I also tested with and received a number .4dKh higher than the titration kits (so 1.4dKH higher than the other Hanna checker). Both hanna checkers were tested against the hanna standard cuvette and passed their margin of error within reason. Multiple samples were taken using different lots of reagents with the same exact results.

    At that point I decided to trust the acid titration tests over the checkers.

    I still routinely check with a salifert kit, it’s quick easy and gives me consistent accurate results.

    Everyone has a different experience. I happened to have a couple wonky checkers. There are plenty of folks that have had no issues.

    For full disclosure when I originally posted about my experiences A representative of Hanna contacted me and offered to replace my checker to make it right, which I didn’t solicit in any way, clearly they work hard to stand behind their product and help their customers. That’s a BIG deal these days! Hanna gets big kudos from me for that!
     
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  7. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    This talk is making me consider offering a Salifert alkalinity test kit, just to compare against my Hanna checker.
     
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  8. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    I misunderstood. I thought the Hanna and the Salifert agreed and the khg was higher
     
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  9. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    Here is everything and more than you ever wanted to know about my system right now.
    I went out dug out my hanna checker this am after posting @ 8;30 am, and read my AM ALK as 9.3 on my salifert and 9.3 on the retired hanna checker "expires 4 0f 18".

    I might just out of curiosity sake start a week of am and pm tests of ALK and post results. More often is not consistently possible right now with work except Weekend but ill shoot for 4x per day this weekend maybe. My overall goal personally with what ever I choose to do has always been to detect a change faster than my weekly testing would and get a greater understanding of what my tank is doing related to my other modifications like PAR, water parameters, n so forth. And why I'm interested in a automated ALK controller personally.
    Normal 100 ml per day SODA ASH type ALk supplement has been suspend/ on pause for 4 days after Water change and ATO KALK refresh/ refill.
    12-29-17 thru 2-28-18 testing with salifert was >8.2 <8.7 red cyano in DT was present strongly recently so i did a 200 gallon WC on 2-29-18 no other negative effects noticed lately. Changed carbon with two 50 ml bags and 25 ML of P04 X4 media on 2-31-18 water had yellow tint in WC white bucket test and p04 was still undetectable.
    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 check =TBD


    system parameters 3 yr old 600 gallons mixed reef w/60 fish 300 smaller frag plugs/colonies no colonies over two fist size.
    Quarterly Wc of 200 gallons of fritz RPM most recent was last weekend.
    Typical ALK additions hourly via Bubble magnus doser is 100 ML per day but I'm over my target ALK ATM and it in manual mode till is get to 8.7 again. This is directly related to the WC with fritz and recently filling the 100 gallon ATO and adding new KALK powder in the tub which seems to add a bit more than my system uses ALK wise per day when fully saturated but at about half saturated I need daily ALK additions as mentioned.
    I run a sulfur denitrator with 2 gallons of media and average about .5 PPM N03 daily increase w/o a reactor. ALSO NOTE= ""denitrator consumes ALK from water but not CA or P04**""

    Common shared lifereef sump w/ separated tanks of 300/50/50/50/100/+ 50 gallon sump volume. Huge 6' tall lifereef skimmer and no active fuge area, but staggered photo period on 4 frags tanks first lights on 300 display at 8 am, last lights off on my 100 gallon LPS system at 8 am. So something is always on photo period wise in the system but its more heavily watts/gallons wise lite during normal period times of 8am-10 pm
    daily additions are 0 except for 3 auto feedings and alot of ATO in a high flow area in sump
    saturated kalk ATO 24-7 via liter meter doser "about 4 gallons per day evaporation"
    ph 8.05 low and 8.30 high "from KALK" with out fully saturated Kalk 7.9-8.10 is commonly observed.
    temp 78.5
    target ALK 8.7
    mag 1500
    Strontium 35-40 **high from recent addition of two gallons of different manufactures mag one which adds SR one doesnt and i accounted for extra SR unnecessarily. Last month 1-28 and 2-28-18 mag test showed 1340 and 1300. *Asternia starfish in DT are mostly gone visible 10-20 starfish and coraline is rapidly growing back and consuming MAG more than normal.
    ca 470 bit high for me atm.
    no3 2.5PPM
    Iodine low =added 12 drops
    K 340 low =added one 16 OZ of Oceans blend Potassium on 2-30-18
    Iron not tested
    silicate not tested

    Feel free to ask any questions on why I'm doing what I'm doing. If I log on from mobil to make it easier, ill take some current pictures. Everyone loves pictures.


    p04 lowest detectable on salifert ".02 ppb ish"
    average par in system 250-300
     
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  10. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    I look forward to seeing your results. As much as I would like to have an ALK controller, that is way beyond my budget so I will have to make do with what I can afford.
     
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  11. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    BC169C1F-B9BD-4DFD-8F61-71257DE79C9C.jpeg 0042D484-3D92-4191-99A4-BDCAFB60E278.jpeg C3A899F0-9346-42AF-B3C3-82B75CB7F251.jpeg C5A7700D-C719-4CE2-A166-050AB97150AF.jpeg 12FB4FAC-A0EE-40C4-AF5C-1158586DA4DE.jpeg C4074A5D-DC5D-411C-A4BD-3F4EE7FD7952.jpeg CD86490B-BB22-4E86-A220-2AEF00F15EF1.jpeg 02290C85-3D19-46E8-9265-E525F2FAC7B8.jpeg 0EB3BAA7-E633-4772-A5CE-FE7E26C256DA.jpeg 51CF4E25-6DA0-4EC3-96B4-B0BB29EFFF61.jpeg 19499891-EC53-4589-9EA6-5393796E16AD.jpeg 916276FD-FF5E-4F43-A3D3-44F9FB2BCF11.jpeg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
     
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  12. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    I didn't clean anything or work hard at it, I just grabbed photos of stuff n posted for some eye candy. Really need to up my PHOTO GAME I think.. lol oh well. Always looks best in person. Anyone in central florida is welcome to come see the insanity just Pm me.
    I don't work for WWC I just love to help out at the shows and hang out with the WWC CREW! There great folks. I'll be @ RAP orlando 2018 and I got in on there Go cart challenge deal again this year because its lots of fun. Also shout out to TOP SHELF AQUATICS who recently sold me there old FARM REEF BRIGHT DOUBLE HALIDE/ quad XHO LED strip setup super cheap to help me get more light on the second Frag tank. I'm filling third frag tank now when i cut some things. KEVIN and ALEX have done me many a great favors over the years! There group is all awesome. All the local orlando stores are awesome.,. Reefers direct, Living reef, Sea in the city, Something fishy. There all great and they have always taken care of me and our REEF club. They all have something there particularly good at to be honest. I have to mention nearly all my filter equipment is LIFE REEF and JEFF is a great guy who stands behind his stuff. All of it does what its supposed to.
     
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  13. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    Ugh I don't trust my Hanna Alk checker at all anymore! I tested 9.3 today, which I thought odd since that would have been a large spike. Then I test again and it reads 8.0..

    I'm switching over to salifert the first chance I get.... This is infuriating.
     
  14. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    When I was using the hanna checker last yr, I would test 2x in a row Occasionally, and I did see significant differences maybe twice. I am always careful on quantities and to clean the vial very well before each test. I decided it was too inconsistent to serve my needs and why I back shelved it. During my tests I'm doing this time I was not double testing, but I will now because reagent is almost exprired anyway so in the name of my pseudoscience well make use of it best we can. For the below tests I am not doing an other additions at all that would likely effect daily ALK other than KALK ATO. ALK dose is on pause till I reach <8.7 and I am diluting my 100 gallon KALK ATO because it was introducing more ALK than my systems is using and my CA is rather high "470" atm and I want to let the ATO water dilute so I may get those back into line over the next 30 days. This is typical of my system and I would not say I have a huge ALk consumption rate in my system. I do find I over shoot ALk if my KALK is fully saturated due to over 4 gallons a day going into the system for evaporation. To be as fair as possible to HANNA checker I am rinsing both with room temperature RODI prior to test and after the test which is typical for all my test vials and test procedures including salifert. I use the same glass vial each time in the checker as well. I don't use the second vial they provide. lid is on every time and vial is wiped clean every time. All of those things I think can matter and lead to inconsistency in all testing methods.
    results to date=
    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 checks
    8:30 am =none
    5:30 pm =none
    3-4-18 am test
    9:30 am =first test salifert =8.9,/Hanna 9.0/ second Hanna =9.1,
    Pm test TBD
     
  15. Literallyhydro

    Literallyhydro Active Member

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    Interesting that in your experiment it generally reads close to the same as salifert.
     
  16. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    I think my results show again that not every tester is as well calibrated as others. And I'm willing to say you should never make a dose or change to your doser until you verified there is a change with multi tests or test kits. I'm confident enough in salfert test kits that if i see change i adjust for about half what i think i need then retest in 48 hours. and I always write down what it was before and after the test on my doser program. That way I can easily undo what ever I added or subtracted confidently. I keep a large white board on the wall for all that stuff.

    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 checks
    8:30 am =none
    5:30 pm =none
    3-4-18 am test
    9:30 am =first test salifert =8.9,/Hanna 9.0/ second Hanna =9.1,
    6:30 pm =first test sailfert 8.9/Hanna 8.7 / second Hanna =8.8
     
  17. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Dude you need to know the margin of error in each test. And the numbers you have gotten are well within that range.
     
  18. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    DUDE didn't say there weren't, just posting the data man. No trash talking any type of test or method or margin or error. Just simple data related to the tread. No crazy results as of yet I don't think.. everything is as expected and on track. I don't consider my HANNA to be one thats ""bad"" but i just don't want to use it as my main method of ALK monitoring after what I have read about them. Data so far to me says mine is fine and works as its supposed to.

    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 checks
    8:30 am =none
    5:30 pm =none
    3-4-18 am test
    9:30 am =first test salifert =8.9,/Hanna 9.0/ second Hanna =9.1,
    6:30 pm =first test sailfert 8.9/Hanna 8.7 / second Hanna =8.8
    3-5-18 am test
    9:45am first sailfert 8.6/first hanna 8.7/ second hanna 8.7
     
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  19. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Only wrote that because you suggested that your tests weren't calibrated. I was just saying that the Hanna Monitor has a +-.3 DKH range. Which means that making changes to dosing, etc doesn't make sense unless its more than .6 DKH if you're using that tester. You will be chasing your tail
     
  20. James Kanouff

    James Kanouff Active Member

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    3-2-18 check =
    8:30 am =salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    5:30 pm = salifert 9.3/ Hanna 9.3
    3-3-18 checks
    8:30 am =none
    5:30 pm =none
    3-4-18 am test
    9:30 am =first test salifert =8.9,/Hanna 9.0/ second Hanna =9.1,
    6:30 pm =first test sailfert 8.9/Hanna 8.7 / second Hanna =8.8
    3-5-18 am test
    9:45am first sailfert 8.6/first hanna 8.7/ second hanna 8.7
    6:45 pm first sailfert 8.3/ first hanna 8.5/ second hanna 8.6

    ***This evening I turned on my 80 ml per day split over 24 doses of ALK solution on my doser and I dosed 25 ml of ALk solution as well manually. I expect the next few days to hold stable at 8.7 hopefully. no changes to KALK solution will be made for next 25 days. ill just keep going till i run out of ALK solution for the HANNA checker. I also added 6 drops of Iodine to the system, and fed the corals some reef smoothie.
     
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