All for Reef frustration—Help?

[Hans-Werner]

Let’s take iodine for example. Most ICP’s I’ve seen with AFR show depleted levels and sometimes elevated levels which can be bad for a tank. This is a problem, because you are unable to fine tune that element.

You already state it. It is no problem to find iodine with ICP-OES, so it is very easy to fine tune this element. Where is the problem? The problem is with the elements that usually stay below detection levels.

Iodine is not precipitated in carbonates like most trace metals, so there is no fixed ratio, but I never told to treat iodine the same way. Iodine supply must be fine tuned according to ICP analyses. Nevertheless, there are recommendations to dose iodide for decades, I think from Wilkens already.

To be bad for a tank, iodine concentrations must be quite high, at least more than double the natural concentration. It is not too difficult to adjust the concentration between 50 and 100 ppb with ICP-OES analyses from time to time.

Please see my article here and do something for my Researchegate stats. It is not my first detailed article on this theme and I think they still are quite good. Trace elements mixes based on these formulas are still sold.

Look at Iron and Manganese for example. What if you have a large refugium with Marco algae?

Depends whether you have a tank for algae or for corals. Corals do not need a high iron supply. Overdosing iron has rather adverse effects to corals, at least at low phosphate concentrations and algae competing for nutrients with corals. Manganese is different and we have higher manganese concentrations than iron concentrations in our trace element mixes. A regular supply will fulfil the needs of corals no matter whether the metal is long term stable and detectable by ICP-OES.

I see elements like Fluoride & Boron get depleted very quickly…how do you address those? Or do you trust the bottle and hope they’re in normal ranges? Fluoride specifically needs to be loaded initially until it hits a saturation point which in most systems will never happen with AFR.

Both are also in our trace element mixes and AFR. Although I experimentally have done no or very little water changes in two of our systems for some time now, boron is long term stable at 4 to 4.5 ppm supplied with AFR only.

Besides all this, water changes have to be good for something, don't they? If you think you have low manganese and iron concentrations ...

 

[Reefahholic]

You already state it. It is no problem to find iodine with ICP-OES, so it is very easy to fine tune this element. Where is the problem? The problem is with the elements that usually stay below detection levels.

Iodine is not precipitated in carbonates like most trace metals, so there is no fixed ratio, but I never told to treat iodine the same way. Iodine supply must be fine tuned according to ICP analyses. Nevertheless, there are recommendations to dose iodide for decades, I think from Wilkens already.

To be bad for a tank, iodine concentrations must be quite high, at least more than double the natural concentration. It is not too difficult to adjust the concentration between 50 and 100 ppb with ICP-OES analyses from time to time.

Please see my article here and do something for my Researchegate stats. It is not my first detailed article on this theme and I think they still are quite good. Trace elements mixes based on these formulas are still sold.

Depends whether you have a tank for algae or for corals. Corals do not need a high iron supply. Overdosing iron has rather adverse effects to corals, at least at low phosphate concentrations and algae competing for nutrients with corals. Manganese is different and we have higher manganese concentrations than iron concentrations in our trace element mixes. A regular supply will fulfil the needs of corals no matter whether the metal is long term stable and detectable by ICP-OES.


Both are also in our trace element mixes and AFR. Although I experimentally have done no or very little water changes in two of our systems for some time now, boron is long term stable at 4 to 4.5 ppm supplied with AFR only.

Besides all this, water changes have to be good for something, don't they? If you think you have low manganese and iron concentrations ...

Last question:

Fluoride is used quite heavily by most systems. How important is it? There’s really not much data and most of what we know is anecdotal. We know there’s a linear relationship between F/Ca that is affected by increasing temperature and salinity. It seems to be possibly controlled by Carbonate ion concentration in seawater. This element cannot be detected by ICP analysis and must be measured separately by IC/ISE HSA. Have you guys measured this element in your tanks will AFR and how do you determine what concentration to put into the A Elements bottle?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Fluoride is used quite heavily buy most systems. How important is it? There’s really not much data and most of what we know is anecdotal.

This is a very good question! Fluoride forms insoluble calcium fluoride with calcium. The natural biological roles of fluorine are scarce besides hardening of enamel. Wikipedia, which is quite up-to-date in such questions also doesn't name much more.

I added it because it is found in skeletons of foraminifera (ca. 300 ppm, range 75 to 505 ppm) and corals and it seemed to have a positive effect, but this is only ... well ... anecdotal.

 

[Reefahholic]

This is a very good question! Fluoride forms insoluble calcium fluoride with calcium. The natural biological roles of fluorine are scarce besides hardening of enamel. Wikipedia, which is quite up-to-date in such questions also doesn't name much more.

I added it because it is found in skeletons of foraminifera (ca. 300 ppm, range 75 to 505 ppm) and corals and it seemed to have a positive effect, but this is only ... well ... anecdotal.

This is a very good question! Fluoride forms insoluble calcium fluoride with calcium. The natural biological roles of fluorine are scarce besides hardening of enamel. Wikipedia, which is quite up-to-date in such questions also doesn't name much more.

I added it because it is found in skeletons of foraminifera (ca. 300 ppm, range 75 to 505 ppm) and corals and it seemed to have a positive effect, but this is only ... well ... anecdotal.

Yes indeed it seems to be very beneficial looking at 9 coral reefs in this study below. For me there’s been enough anecdotal data to convince me already.