All-In-One Ca-Alk-Mg Supplements, alkalinity testing, and how to use them

[Muffin87]

I understand from this post by Tropic Marin that All-In-One Ca-Alk-Mg supplements contain organic compounds that will eventually supply corals with Alk and Ca.
For our purposes, this means you cannot detect an increase in Alkalinity using conventional test kits.
At the moment I think, there are 3 similar products on the market.

1. Tropic Marin All-For-Reef (Ca-Alk-Mg + Trace)
2. PolypLab One (Ca-Alk-Mg)
3. Salifert All-in-One (Ca-Alk-Str + Trace Soft + Trace Hard + Amino Acids)

I am a bit puzzled, and I'd be really grateful if someone could help me out here.

• Are there any All-In-One Ca-Alk-Mg supplements that allow to detect an increase in alkalinity after dosing them?
  I suppose that'd mean formulating them without organic compounds tho. I emailed ATI about their 2-part supplement (2-part isn't as good as All-In-One, but is better than 3-part!), and they said:
  

  If you want a 2-Part ready to use solution, that contains no organic compounds, you need to wait until the end of the year.

• I thought Alkalinity was the number one thing to test in a reef tank, once you have NO3 and PO4 under control, how come these products are so popular if you don't actually know how much Alk is in your system, and what your buffer against low pH is? What if you accidentally overdose them?
  
  
• Maybe I'm just a bit daft, but I've watched a couple of videos on the All-For-Reef, especially this one, and I still don't understand how you should go about dosing All-In-One organic supplements, during the transition period from another mineral supplementation method, and when you increase the stony coral population.

My understanding is that this is a 3-step process for All-For-Reef.

1. You dose 5 ml of ALL-FOR-REEF per 100 litres / 26G daily, while also testing Alk.
2. Daily, when Alk drops, you raise it back to your desired level in a detectable way using Sodium carbonate/sodium bicarbonate or Kalkwasser.
3. Once per week, you increase your All-For-Reef daily dose by 2.5 ml per 100 litres/26G, until your Alk is stable and you can stop using Sodium carbonate/sodium bicarbonate or Kalkwasser to raise it back to your desired level.
4. When you add more corals, and your Alk starts dropping again, you repeat this process again.

It'd seem strange to me if All-For-Reef were this popular, even if dosing it weren't actually rather straightforward.
So, my repurposed dosing pumps and I will be forever grateful, if someone could please explain how to deal with dropping Alkalinity in the period when I'm increasing my All-For-Reef dose every week.

Thank you very much, and sorry for the long post!

 

[Ron Reefman]

I'm less into the newer things that keep popping up in this hobby. Probably because I've been at it for 20 years and have a routine that works for me. Maybe the fact that I'm 71 years old has something to do with it, but in other areas of my life, I tend to embrace change (if it proves useful). And I even tend to be an early adopter of some new things.

But I'm out in the cold on the chemistries for all in one Ca, alk, Mg and more dosing systems. Your post is really the first I've been exposed to it. But then I dose Ca by Dow Flake, alk by a pool supply soda ash and Mg by Mag Flake!

I have a hard time believing that you can dose one of these mixes and not be able to test for higher Ca and alk. That makes no sense to me.

So I'm open to more discussion about it. I'll follow along here. And I may just buy one of these systems to give it a try. Muffin87, do you have one you think would be the best one to try? I have to admit, I'm more than a bit put off by adding too much of something which the Salifert system would entail.

 

[GlassMunky]

I think you are misunderstanding how it works.
you can still detect the increase of ALKusing these products, it’s just somewhat delayed when you first start up dosing while the biological activities startup. once everything is going you can detect any shift from day to day.

I use Tropic Marins CarboCarlcium (the ALK/CA part of their ALL FOR REEF just without MAG and trace) and can see daily swings with my Hanna checker.
but when I first started dosing it, it took about 5 days to see it first happen.
Hope this helps clarify it a bit for you

 

[GlassMunky]

to put it another way:
The only time that you cannot test for the increased ALK is during the INITIAL startup when the biological activities have not yet fully taken place.
Once everything is running normally there is NO DIFFERENCE in testing ability.

 

[Rybren]

to put it another way:
The only time that you cannot test for the increased ALK is during the INITIAL startup when the biological activities have not yet fully taken place.
Once everything is running normally there is NO DIFFERENCE in testing ability.

This was my experience as well. In my case it took a couple of days for my system to start breaking down the formate into alk. Once that happened, then all was good.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think you are misunderstanding how it works.
you can still detect the increase of ALKusing these products, it’s just somewhat delayed when you first start up dosing while the biological activities startup. once everything is going you can detect any shift from day to day.

I use Tropic Marins CarboCarlcium (the ALK/CA part of their ALL FOR REEF just without MAG and trace) and can see daily swings with my Hanna checker.
but when I first started dosing it, it took about 5 days to see it first happen.
Hope this helps clarify it a bit for you

While I agree, Lou of Tropic Marin claimed the formate was only broken down in corals, making alk measurement an unsuitable way to judge dosing.

 

[GlassMunky]

While I agree, Lou of Tropic Marin claimed the formate was only broken down in corals, making alk measurement an unsuitable way to judge dosing.

Interesting.... so then what was his metric that he recommended that reefers use if not by measuring ALK?

 

[Muffin87]

Interesting.... so then what was his metric that he recommended that reefers use if not by measuring ALK?

I'm happy I'm not the only one wondering!

do you have one you think would be the best one to try?

• PolypLab One needs to be stirred/shaken before dosing, so it hasn't been that popular.
• Salifert All-In-One is not widely available in the US and doesn't include magnesium anyway.
• Tropic Marin All-For-Reef is the most popular one, it really does include all depletable elements (Ca+Alk+Mg+17 trace elements), and everyone using it raves about its practicality and the results they've had with it. It used to be quite expensive, but in July they've come up with a new powder version that makes it much more affordable. I'd go with this one.

While I agree, Lou of Tropic Marin claimed the formate was only broken down in corals, making alk measurement an unsuitable way to judge dosing.

That's why I am perplexed now, since you're all saying you can actually detect increases in Alk within 24 hrs.
Is it possible that at any point you can only detect a variable percentage of the Alk present in the water? The part that has already been broken down by the bacteria?

Btw, it's not just Lou, that's also the official take on it on the Tropic Marin website:

After dosing, the Carbo-Calcium is present in the water column in a form that cannot yet be measured (by common tests at home) and is only broken down in response to the metabolic demands of the corals. Since the metabolic processes in the organisms take place in a controlled manner (supply and demand), the resulting changes in water parameters are so small they are often undetectable.

These products are highly effective at supplying the essential calcium and bicarbonate components that the coral need for growth, even at extremely low concentrations. These supplied compounds “bypass” a stage where they can be detected in the water column and are taken up by the coral polyps directly.

In summary, it can be said that the components for the growth of corals supplied by means of Carbo-Calcium (and All-For-Reef) are not detectable by conventional test kits.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting.... so then what was his metric that he recommended that reefers use if not by measuring ALK?

While they do not explicitly say this, it appears they want you to titrate the dose upward until the alk is stable. Underdosing would obviously result in low alk. It is less clear that overdosing results in elevated alk (IF you beleive their claims about where it is broken down; I do not).

ALL-FOR-REEF - Tropic Marin®

ALL-FOR-REEF is an easy- to-use, highly concentrated solution for the supply of ALL essential minerals and trace elements in reef aquariums.

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

"Start with a daily dose of 5 ml of ALL-FOR-REEF per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume. Increase the daily dosage – by continuous monitoring of alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9 °dH is reached.

Do not exceed a maximum daily dose of 25 ml of ALL-FOR-REEF per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume."

 

[GlassMunky]

Interesting that they claim that but then every user of it basically experiences the same thing as what I mentioned.

While they do not explicitly say this, it appears they want you to titrate the dose upward until the alk is stable. Underdosing would obviously result in low alk. It is less clear that overdosing results in elevated alk (IF you beleive their claims about where it is broken down; I do not).

ALL-FOR-REEF - Tropic Marin®

ALL-FOR-REEF is an easy- to-use, highly concentrated solution for the supply of ALL essential minerals and trace elements in reef aquariums.

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

"Start with a daily dose of 5 ml of ALL-FOR-REEF per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume. Increase the daily dosage – by continuous monitoring of alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9 °dH is reached.

Do not exceed a maximum daily dose of 25 ml of ALL-FOR-REEF per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume."

im confused, because even in this instruction it says test for ALK..... so obviously it’s able to be tested for

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting that they claim that but then every user of it basically experiences the same thing as what I mentioned.

im confused, because even in this instruction it says test for ALK..... so obviously it’s able to be tested for

It's not an inherently flawed argument, except perhaps long term, but again, I do not personally believe it.

The idea is the formate is providing what corals need, and so measured alk is left unchanged.

 

[Midrats]

@Hans-Werner @Lou Ekus

 

[Lou Ekus]

While I agree, Lou of Tropic Marin claimed the formate was only broken down in corals, making alk measurement an unsuitable way to judge dosing.

I actually said that the formate was "mostly" (I've also said "largely" on some occasions) metabolized within the coral polyps. Not "only" within the coral polyps. And this makes the alkalinity a "less than ideal" parameter to use as an indicator of the dosage. But more importantly, many tank systems, at least here in the US, will use more alkalinity than the stoichiometric ratio in relation to the corals. This is not usually true in the converse relating to Ca. And for THAT reason, the alklalinity is not the best option for monitoring the dosage. It is why I prefer to use the Ca for monitoring AFR or Carbocalcium dosage, and adjust the alkalinity accordingly, if needed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Agreed, but you did say

" For the most part, the excess formate just hangs out in the water until it is needed. "

which goes back to the question of the relationship between alkalinity measurement and determination of the dose.

Calcium is OK for long term dose adjustments, but folks should not jigger the dose after only a day or two if basing it on calcium.

 

[Dorsetsteve]

I’ve been on CarboCalcium for about six to nine months, just switched to the powdered All For Reef. I can honestly say I find it very user friendly and less hassle than the two part I used for so many years.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’ve been on CarboCalcium for about six to nine months, just switched to the powdered All For Reef. I can honestly say I find it very user friendly and less hassle than the two part I used for so many years.

I'm not quibbling, but why is it less hassle?

 

[Midrats]

Could I put this stuff in my top up reservoir? I use a Litermeter and have the evaporation dialed in at 2L/day.

 

[AcanthurusRex]

I have been using All for Reef for a quite awhile and have not found it difficult to use. I use alkalinity to determine adjustments. I don't test constantly, I might miss the lag time. It is primarily an 45g LPS tank so alkalinity consumption is low.
I use so little it does seem like less hassle to me as well. I use about 15ml a day from a 1 liter container, I have a reminder set so I don't forget about it.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Agreed, but you did say

" For the most part, the excess formate just hangs out in the water until it is needed. "

which goes back to the question of the relationship between alkalinity measurement and determination of the dose.

Calcium is OK for long term dose adjustments, but folks should not jigger the dose after only a day or two if basing it on calcium.

I have to agree that one day, or maybe even two, at the very beginning is a very quick, and maybe too inaccurate, way to determine how to adjust the dose. However, using the Ca level to "jigger" or adjust the dose is exactly how I prefer to do it. Then, if you see your Ca is running steady, but your alkalinity is loosing a little ground, you can just adjust every once in a while, with a small supplemental dose of your favorite carbonate addition. This is not necessary in most systems. But it does come up, once in a while, if the circulation, aeration, or CO2 is causing any imbalance in the Ca / alkalinity usage.

 

[Dorsetsteve]

I have to agree that one day, or maybe even two, at the very beginning is a very quick, and maybe too inaccurate, way to determine how to adjust the dose. However, using the Ca level to "jigger" or adjust the dose is exactly how I prefer to do it. Then, if you see your Ca is running steady, but your alkalinity is loosing a little ground, you can just adjust every once in a while, with a small supplemental dose of your favorite carbonate addition. This is not necessary in most systems. But it does come up, once in a while, if the circulation, aeration, or CO2 is causing any imbalance in the Ca / alkalinity usage.

I had this issue, it was suggested to me that I dose smaller volumes more frequently to a higher flow area. Problem solved.