Ammonium bicarbonate to nitrate

[jimk60]

I'm dosing ammonium bicarbonate and wondering approximately how long a dose takes before getting a measurable nitrate change on a test kit.

 

[Dan_P]

I'm dosing ammonium bicarbonate and wondering approximately how long a dose takes before getting a measurable nitrate change on a test kit.

I like this question. I don’t recall seeing this discussed.

 

[jimk60]

I like this question. I don’t recall seeing this discussed.

Mostly just curious if this is something that takes a couple hours or twenty four hours to work through the system

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If it was not consumed, you’d likely see it in less than a day. Could be less, but how much less will depend on the system. But it may very well just be consumed (which is a goal, IMO).

We cannot reliably detect the amount of nitrate from adding 0.1 or 0.2 ppm of ammonia, so trying to see it is not really possible with home tests.

 

[Dan_P]

Mostly just curious if this is something that takes a couple hours or twenty four hours to work through the system

Just to build on @Randy Holmes-Farley thoughts….

When starting a new aquarium with a large amount of nitrifying bacteria (Turbo Start, Dr, Tim’s), ammonia is converted to nitrate rapidily and can be detected within hours with hobby kits. Once an aquarium ages, this nitrifying bacteria population seems to dwindle according to DNA testing. Also, aging aquaria grow algae which I assume take over the ammonia consuming business from the nitrifing bacteria. What happens though is ammonia is consumed and converted to biomass not nitrate. It is possible that when you first start dosing ammonia, it is consumed to make biomass rather than nitrate. I am totally in the dark about the dynamics of the ammonia cycle and what predicts how much ammonia goes to nitrate and how much goes to biomass.

My experimental aquaria never make nitrate and always produces algae biomass. I do not know how to adjust this ammonia cycle to give both nitrate and biomass. And when folks dose a real aquarium, why is any nitrate produced, why not an alga bloom?

I am very interested in the answers you receive.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I do not know how to adjust this ammonia cycle to give both nitrate and biomass. And when folks dose a real aquarium, why is any nitrate produced, why not an alga bloom?

Would you not presume that at some large enough dose, the ammonia consumption will satisfy the N needs and nitrate will show?

 

[Dan_P]

Would you not presume that at some large enough dose, the ammonia consumption will satisfy the N needs and nitrate will show?

That is not an unreasonable presumption. I feel it does not address the question why there is no strong algae growth accompanying the ammonia dose. I suppose the more general question is why increased algae growth does not accompany increasing nitrate concentration? I have to point out that I do not know there isn’t increased algae growth, maybe no increased complaints from aquarists with ammonia dosing.

i might be conflating several things. Can you see my them? I am definitely mixing the depleted and replete inorganic nitrogen systems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If anything except N availability is limiting apparent algae growth then having more N won’t boost it. Could be P, a trace element, light, herbivores, etc.

 

[jimk60]

Just to build on @Randy Holmes-Farley thoughts….

When starting a new aquarium with a large amount of nitrifying bacteria (Turbo Start, Dr, Tim’s), ammonia is converted to nitrate rapidily and can be detected within hours with hobby kits. Once an aquarium ages, this nitrifying bacteria population seems to dwindle according to DNA testing. Also, aging aquaria grow algae which I assume take over the ammonia consuming business from the nitrifing bacteria. What happens though is ammonia is consumed and converted to biomass not nitrate. It is possible that when you first start dosing ammonia, it is consumed to make biomass rather than nitrate. I am totally in the dark about the dynamics of the ammonia cycle and what predicts how much ammonia goes to nitrate and how much goes to biomass.

My experimental aquaria never make nitrate and always produces algae biomass. I do not know how to adjust this ammonia cycle to give both nitrate and biomass. And when folks dose a real aquarium, why is any nitrate produced, why not an alga bloom?

I am very interested in the answers you receive.

I'm mixing food grade ammonium bicarbonate at a rate of 3tsp to 500ml of RO. I dose 7ml per day which I think is a pretty low dose. My reef has been running for at least ten years and could never maintain nitrate at detectable levels. After starting the ammonium dosing approximately 5 months ago I'm reading between 10 and 20 on a salifert nitrate kit with low algae growth. I can't say I've seen any real difference in coral growth or color as I'm mainly concerned with keeping dinos at bay.

 

[Dan_P]

If anything except N availability is limiting apparent algae growth then having more N won’t boost it. Could be P, a trace element, light, herbivores, etc.

Thanks. This, “something else is limiting”, is what I needed to get my thinking back on track. Still surprising how older systems just don’t explode with algae growth like new ones potentially can.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I think one thing that often gets overlooked is grazing and filter feeding. Older systems may not necessarily be producing less algae, they may simply have more organisms constantly consuming it or removing it from the water column.

 

[Dan_P]

@Randy Holmes-Farley we never got an answer. How long does it take? What do aquarists observe when they first start dosing ammonia? Do we need a new thread to gather observations?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

My expectation is that there is no available answer for an established tank since no one doses enough at once to easily measure the drop using hobby kits.

 

[Dan_P]

My expectation is that there is no available answer for an established tank since no one doses enough at once to easily measure the drop using hobby kits.

How about the other way round, “how long after starting ammonia dosing did you notice a nitrate concentration increase?”

 

[Dan_P]

My expectation is that there is no available answer for an established tank since no one doses enough at once to easily measure the drop using hobby kits.

I have been thinking that I might chance a single 0.1 ppm dose and attempt to detect ammonia and nitrate trends. Since ghis on the ragged edge of detectability, I would have to run this at least 3X. I don’t know how valuable a one-off study is.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How about the other way round, “how long after starting ammonia dosing did you notice a nitrate concentration increase?”

I just think it will be highly variable tank to tank. But collecting info to refute or corm that seems a fine plan.

IIRC, Rishma and some others never saw a nitrate increase, but he did see some coral darkening. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have been thinking that I might chance a single 0.1 ppm dose and attempt to detect ammonia and nitrate trends. Since ghis on the ragged edge of detectability, I would have to run this at least 3X. I don’t know how valuable a one-off study is.

Might be worth seeing if you can detect that at all in an operating reef. Between noise and it possibly getting taken up even before it mixes in fully may make it challenging.