An Almost Successful In Tank AEFW Treatment

[Laser]

I have been able to get in contact with Kate Rawlison and she is taking a look at the threads from the UK now! Hopefully she will chime in soon and let us know what her thoughs are on the eggs. I am on my way to my brothers house now to take pics of the eggs and check them out.

 

[Laser]

shots from day 13

 

[labas39]

shots from day 13

Are you still going to do the second treatment tomorrow or are you going to wait to see what these eggs do?

 

[Laser]

Are you still going to do the second treatment tomorrow or are you going to wait to see what these eggs do?

As of now we are planning to perform the second treatment unless Kate advises us otherwise after taking a look at the pics.

 

[Laser]

Here was Kate's response on another forum:

Great photos - those egg capsules are all open (see the little open circle in each egg capsule - that is the 'trapdoor' that opens at hatching) and I can't tell whether they hatched before or after the Potassium Chloride treatment. At hatching the AEFWs probably swim straight into the coral skeleton (but some may spend some time swimming around in the tank). If these eggs hatched before the treatment the hatchlings in the coral skeleton might have had some protection from the increased salinity from the corals own slime, alternatively like the adult worms they might have been killed. Hatchlings are microscopic (0.3mm) so you would need a microscope to assess the impact of KCL on them. If they hatched after the treatment it means that the Potassium Chloride soln wasn't effective at killing off the embryos in their egg capsules.

Your findings are really encouraging especially given the resilience of the Acropora to the treatment, and they have given us some very focused questions to answer.
1) can hatchlings and juveniles (that you can't see with the naked eye) survive this treatment?
2) can the Potassium Chloride solution kill off embryos in the egg capsules?

Flatworms, like corals, use mucous as a protection against environmental changes. Your KCL treatment seemed to work well against the adults and we can now look at the effects on the younger stages.

We are restocking our AEFW tanks with new Acropora now (after a die off due to bacteria) and we can try these experiments shortly.

I think AEFW can grow quite quickly, so if you didn't repeat this treatment for a while, say 4-6 weeks, then did it again and saw small AEFW (5mm) fly off then that might tell you that eggs and hatchlings can survive the treatment.

 

[Laser]

Kate and I were discussing through email and here was my response:

This is copy of email that was replied to Kate:

Thanks for taking the time to view the aefw and give your expertise. It is really important to know that the eggs had already hatched and thanks again for your insight. Do you have any acro with aefw eggs currently alive? If so a dip treatment with the KCL can be prepared by adding 1 teaspoon of dry KCL to 1/2 gallon of water. That is equivalent to the whole tank treatment that was performed. It would be really interesting to know if the treatment effects the eggs or if they were already hatched before the treatment.
Now for the go ahead plan:
option 1 - continue on with the second treatment tonight assuming the treatment does not effect the eggs (this is 14 days since last treatment) or would you recommend to wait a longer period such as 21 days due to a hatch time?
option 2- do nothing going forward and observe over time - knowing that a further treatment could be necessary(4 to 6 weeks) to watch aefw possibly grow and re-infest the acro colonies. --- seems a bit concerning to the wellfare of the SPS over time if the aefw was not killed the first treatment.

So if I did the treatment tonight do you not feel that we could conclude that the initial treatment did not kill the eggs? Assuming that we see small or any aefw. I am in a pickle now as to what would be best going forward.

 

[Laser]

here is response on email from Kate:

Our most recent experiments show that eggs hatch 11-14 days at 27C. I've got to run now, but will get back to you in 4 hours time as to what to do next. Saving your corals is the most important thing right now. Lets discuss later, Kate.

 

[labas39]

I found this thread yesterday dated back in 2009:

Lanman's Acropora-Eating Flatworm (AEFW) Thread

In there he talks about using Potassium Permanganate to kill AEFW.

Anyway, he also observed that eggs take 3 to 4 weeks to hatch and AEFW were ready to reproduce in 3 weeks and die of old age by 4 to 5 weeks.

If that's all true and the eggs survived the treatment, then doing a second treatment at two weeks will kill the AEFW that hatched from eggs laid one week to four weeks before the first treatment. Those that were laid up to two weeks before the first treatment will hatch after the second treatment. The third treatment at four weeks after the first should then get them all since it takes 3 weeks to reach the age to reproduce, no new eggs would be laid by any AEFW that hatched after the first treatment.

Almost need a timeline chart.

 

[labas39]

here is response on email from Kate:

Our most recent experiments show that eggs hatch 11-14 days at 27C. I've got to run now, but will get back to you in 4 hours time as to what to do next. Saving your corals is the most important thing right now. Lets discuss later, Kate.

Well, 14 days incubation period is even better!

 

[Laser]

I found this thread yesterday dated back in 2009:

Lanman's Acropora-Eating Flatworm (AEFW) Thread

In there he talks about using Potassium Permanganate to kill AEFW.

Anyway, he also observed that eggs take 3 to 4 weeks to die and AEFW were ready to reproduce in 3 weeks and die of old age by 4 to 5 weeks.

If that's all true and the eggs survived the treatment, then doing a second treatment at two weeks will kill the AEFW that hatched from eggs laid one week to four weeks before the first treatment. Those that were laid up to two weeks before the first treatment will hatch after the second treatment. The third treatment at four weeks after the first should then get them all since it takes 3 weeks to reach the age to reproduce, no new eggs would be laid by any AEFW that hatched after the first treatment.

Almost need a timeline chart.

This is exactly our thoughts and why we are planning to treat 3 times total unless Kate advises otherwise when we communicate later this afternoon. That being said we have already prepared the treatment solution and have it mixing in a 5 gallon bucket ready for tonight if she gives us the go ahead. I would really like to take her advice on what to do as this could really be a crucial step in a viable method to get rid of these pests. Patiently waiting her answer. Not!!! I will probably wear a hole in my shoes before she calls back..lol

 

[Laser]

I found this thread yesterday dated back in 2009:

Lanman's Acropora-Eating Flatworm (AEFW) Thread

In there he talks about using Potassium Permanganate to kill AEFW.

Anyway, he also observed that eggs take 3 to 4 weeks to hatch and AEFW were ready to reproduce in 3 weeks and die of old age by 4 to 5 weeks.

If that's all true and the eggs survived the treatment, then doing a second treatment at two weeks will kill the AEFW that hatched from eggs laid one week to four weeks before the first treatment. Those that were laid up to two weeks before the first treatment will hatch after the second treatment. The third treatment at four weeks after the first should then get them all since it takes 3 weeks to reach the age to reproduce, no new eggs would be laid by any AEFW that hatched after the first treatment.

Almost need a timeline chart.

I am not sure the effect the difference in chemical composition of the Permanganate (KMnO4) vs what I use potassium chloride (KCL) would have on in tank treatment. Maybe Randy can chime in on that one at least on the chemical aspect, however I do feel the elevated levels of potassium are what is crucial in killing the AEFW so could be why had success using as a dip at least as far as killing the aefw goes.. The MnO4 is that part that would scare me to add..

 

[labas39]

That would be a great question for Randy! I'm an engineer, not a chemist!

 

[Laser]

That would be a great question for Randy! I'm an engineer, not a chemist!

As am I so I punt on this one as well...lol

 

[Diesel]

Following.

 

[Laser]

Spoke with Kate this evening and here is what she said:

"For the sake of your acropora I would go ahead and do a second treatment tonight. It will be interesting to see if anymore big AEFW (that are visible with the naked eye) come off, if so they will have somehow survived the initial treatment.
We can try the treatment on eggs and hatchlings when we have some. I don't keep a tank myself but I'm collaborating with Cat Dybala in Texas and she has two Acropora tanks that she useds for the AEFW experiments. She has had to restart the tanks after a bacterial infection killed off the corals, so it will be a few months or so until we can try this. She is currently sourcing Acropora and then has to "source" the AEFW!
I think that to accurately tell whether the KCL solution is killing the embryos we will need a good microscope and I have access to a good one in Texas. Keep us posted on your second treatment - it would be so great if this was the answer to all AEFW problems.
Best,
Kate"

 

[Laser]

we have now mixed the second treatment batch and will treat at 10PM central. Wish us luck...:director:

 

[Diesel]

Spoke with Kate this evening and here is what she said:

"For the sake of your acropora I would go ahead and do a second treatment tonight. It will be interesting to see if anymore big AEFW (that are visible with the naked eye) come off, if so they will have somehow survived the initial treatment.
We can try the treatment on eggs and hatchlings when we have some. I don't keep a tank myself but I'm collaborating with Cat Dybala in Texas and she has two Acropora tanks that she useds for the AEFW experiments. She has had to restart the tanks after a bacterial infection killed off the corals, so it will be a few months or so until we can try this. She is currently sourcing Acropora and then has to "source" the AEFW!
I think that to accurately tell whether the KCL solution is killing the embryos we will need a good microscope and I have access to a good one in Texas. Keep us posted on your second treatment - it would be so great if this was the answer to all AEFW problems.
Best,
Kate"

Btw, Cat Dybala is Tektite on R2R.
Here's the study that Kate and Cat are working on, https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge...-acro-eating-flatworms-experiments-study.html

 

[Laser]

Btw, Cat Dybala is Tektite on R2R.
Here's the study that Kate and Cat are working on, https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge...-acro-eating-flatworms-experiments-study.html

Perfect. Thanks for posting her link for everyone.

 

[labas39]

Good luck!

Looking forward to the results.

 

[choff]

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