Another Dino Request!

[ScottB]

I believe those are large cell amphids. While I cannot make out the asymmetric "beak", the Roomba swim pattern is a pretty good tell. @taricha will turn up at some point to confirm.

You've done some reading up already; that is clear. These are the most difficult to solve for, but they are not terribly harmful either. In fact, if your tank is newish, I would let them ride for a while to see if someone else comes along to outcompete them.

I am not familiar with SpongeExcel substitutes for silica dosing but you could try over in the chemistry forum.

Blackouts and UV are not thought to be effective for this specie.

 

[dwest]

No matter what dinos you have, there are some things to do either way. You seems to have measurable nitrates and phosphates. That’s good. I personally would keep doing weekly (minimum) manual removal, stop feeding corals, add GAC (replace weekly), and wait.

It sounds like your snails are doing well, so that’s a good thing. And this suggests to me that your tank might ride this out.

When I had small cell amphidinium, my tank did better after a water change.

I believe water glass is the silica you can buy across the pond. Good luck.

 

[Chrisv.]

Thanks for the reply! Do you know what type you had? I nearly bought one, but I have read UV sterlizers are not the best for amphidinium.

Do you have corals that were affected by the blackout? This is what mostly worries me about that particular course.

I have a Mexican turbo snail and it is extra-ordinary. I can definitely see other algaes on the rocks, but this thing totally strips them overnight. I am loathe to purchase any more CUC (I have two Trochus and a beautiful pin cushion urchin) as at this stage if I get diatoms or anything else to replace my dinos, I have confidence he'll see it off!

None of my corals were harmed by the blackout. I had mostly softies and a few lps at the time. And monti.

Nobody even color shifted. No coral issues at all.

I rolled the dice and figured that worst case scenario, uv would help clarify my water, which it has. I didn't ID my dino genus. The brand was "aquatop" and it was their "sp nano uv."

 

[ReefRusty]

My 3 day blackout completed sand and rock are looking loads better than what it did before lights would come on. Appears all coral so far have come good. Zoas are already starting to open and hammers and torches appear untouched. Hard to say about my SPS corals at this stage. All fish as expected are good as gold. Guessing they would be hungry though.

Today is my normal WC day do I still complete this as per normal?

 

[Chrisv.]

You might benefit from holding off on the WC unless there is something to siphon off. I think there is some truth to the idea that you don't want to bottom out your nitrates and phosphate.

I really felt that the bacteria cultures made a big difference. I used to think that stuff was snake oil. Now I'm a believer. You can also bump up the temp a couple of degrees. Some people have been lucky with that and it costs nothing to try.

 

[simecircle]

I believe those are large cell amphids. While I cannot make out the asymmetric "beak", the Roomba swim pattern is a pretty good tell. @taricha will turn up at some point to confirm.

You've done some reading up already; that is clear. These are the most difficult to solve for, but they are not terribly harmful either. In fact, if your tank is newish, I would let them ride for a while to see if someone else comes along to outcompete them.

I am not familiar with SpongeExcel substitutes for silica dosing but you could try over in the chemistry forum.

Blackouts and UV are not thought to be effective for this specie.

Yeah, I would say that in general most things seem to be thriving, so I am loathe to do anything drastic. I would love @taricha 's opinion as it seems a real challenge to identify these guys whatever they are, or at least to my inexperienced eyes. When you say Roomba, you mean they are like robot vacuum cleaners?

The tank is 7 months old and all of my parameters (including nitrates and phosphates) seem pretty stable for the moment.

Good call on the chemistry forum.

 

[simecircle]

While keeping the nitrate and phosphate levels in check these are not the end-all. Dinos are bacteria and are beating out other forms of bac. I'd suggest Dr. Tims's method. There are many methods out there and some work some don't. However, it never hurts to try other methods as folks do have success with them. It really depends on each individual tank.

I spent many months trying different methods to get rid of Amphidinium (Large-Cell). I tried UV, raise temp, dosing silicates, Microbacter 7, phyto, Microbe-Lift, peroxide, and blackouts, siphoning it all out and into a 5-micron sock, and reusing the water. I tried most things that were recommended. Nothing was working, so I eventually went with Dino-X. I followed the directions to a T and did 12 doses of DinoX and used just under the recommended dose as overdosing seems to be the biggest culprit of folks having issues with it. After the dinos were gone I did get cyano. I used Dr. Tim's treatment for the cyano and have not had any issues since and it's been 7 months. I still dose Waste Away and Refresh every two weeks. If they ever come back, I'll try Dr. Tim's Waste Away and Refresh method for them.

Thank you I will take a look at these products. I have to admit to some concern at throwing stuff in without quite a lot of thought/ research, but I will have a good look!

 

[simecircle]

No matter what dinos you have, there are some things to do either way. You seems to have measurable nitrates and phosphates. That’s good. I personally would keep doing weekly (minimum) manual removal, stop feeding corals, add GAC (replace weekly), and wait.

It sounds like your snails are doing well, so that’s a good thing. And this suggests to me that your tank might ride this out.

When I had small cell amphidinium, my tank did better after a water change.

I believe water glass is the silica you can buy across the pond. Good luck.

Ah, good advice - I shall take a look and see if I can find some.

 

[Chrisv.]

Thank you I will take a look at these products. I have to admit to some concern at throwing stuff in without quite a lot of thought/ research, but I will have a good look!

+1 for Dr.tims. I still dose waste away too. I also do a 3/4 dose of vibrant once a week. My tank has never looked cleaner.

 

[simecircle]

None of my corals were harmed by the blackout. I had mostly softies and a few lps at the time. And monti.

Nobody even color shifted. No coral issues at all.

I rolled the dice and figured that worst case scenario, uv would help clarify my water, which it has. I didn't ID my dino genus. The brand was "aquatop" and it was their "sp nano uv."

Yeah, if I don't have amphidinium, I am now thinking a UV "clarifier" will not harm the situation. I suppose I am struggling to work out which one to use for such a small tank. (FLuval EVO)

 

[taricha]

@taricha, this document was authored by yourself? Firstly, thanks for such a useful article and secondly, if you care to give your opinion on what I have shared so far, it would be gratefully received!!

Thanks. Yeah it's info I collected mostly by watching a lot of outbreaks in the hobby.

In addition to what's in the guide there are some cells in your video where I think I can make out this structure of lighter round areas to either side of the center, like in the below post.

the structure of the lighter areas inside the cell is a pattern that is pretty indicative of proros. never seen it in amphidinium.

Here's a shot of the structures in greater detail.
These are often visible in hobby scopes with prorocentrum, and I don't ever see them in amphidinium.

 

[dwest]

Yeah, if I don't have amphidinium, I am now thinking a UV "clarifier" will not harm the situation. I suppose I am struggling to work out which one to use for such a small tank. (FLuval EVO)

With UV do NOT go by manufacturer recommendations. There are numerous accounts (mine included) that we need to upsize watts and slow flow for dinos. You will want at least 1 watt UV per every 3 gallons water, at 2-3 times your tank volume per hour of flow. Plumbed in and out of tank. This configuration is often more difficult, but it works and it’s likely somewhat temporary.

 

[dwest]

Yeah, if I don't have amphidinium, I am now thinking a UV "clarifier" will not harm the situation. I suppose I am struggling to work out which one to use for such a small tank. (FLuval EVO)

If your tank is the normal 13.5 gallon EVO, then I would look at green killing machines. Other reefers have had success and I even used one in my coral quarantine with success. I think mine is 9 watts.

 

[simecircle]

If your tank is the normal 13.5 gallon EVO, then I would look at green killing machines. Other reefers have had success and I even used one in my coral quarantine with success. I think mine is 9 watts.

Wow, that's exactly the unit I was thinking of. Does it have to go into the hidden end, do you think? I have seen pictures of it just in a tank, and while aesthetically I wouldn't be that keen. I am seeing this almost as a temporary measure. I am also likely to get a bigger tank in the next few weeks (not much bigger, but nonetheless)

 

[simecircle]

Thanks. Yeah it's info I collected mostly by watching a lot of outbreaks in the hobby.

In addition to what's in the guide there are some cells in your video where I think I can make out this structure of lighter round areas to either side of the center, like in the below post.


Here's a shot of the structures in greater detail.
These are often visible in hobby scopes with prorocentrum, and I don't ever see them in amphidinium.

Thanks so much for your thoughts and expertise. I am going to try and get a better video to see if I can confirm your thinking.

I read in your pdf that prorocentrum need some sort of change in conditions, I am assuming to get them to move into the water column where I might be able to get them with a UV sterlizer. Would you care to elaborate? It suggests a short blackout, but isn't this what happens every night when I turn out all the lights?

 

[taricha]

I read in your pdf that prorocentrum need some sort of change in conditions, I am assuming to get them to move into the water column where I might be able to get them with a UV sterlizer. Would you care to elaborate? It suggests a short blackout, but isn't this what happens every night when I turn out all the lights?

Right. The aim is to increase the number of cells being UV. Prorocentrum are good at establishing a comfortable niche and staying put. So people generally find they have to push them in some way to make them take top the water in any noticeable numbers.
By short blackout I mean something well under the 3 days often recommended for algae reduction. 36 or 48 hours is a decent target. Manually blasting with turkey baster also helps.

 

[simecircle]

Right. The aim is to increase the number of cells being UV. Prorocentrum are good at establishing a comfortable niche and staying put. So people generally find they have to push them in some way to make them take top the water in any noticeable numbers.
By short blackout I mean something well under the 3 days often recommended for algae reduction. 36 or 48 hours is a decent target. Manually blasting with turkey baster also helps.

Awesome - will give this a try. Is silica dosing to promote diatoms that will out compete a good idea with this type?

 

[taricha]

Awesome - will give this a try. Is silica dosing to promote diatoms that will out compete a good idea with this type?

I haven't yet seen a case where Si dosing was detrimental. Sometimes it doesn't seem to do much if the diatom growth is already limited by other nutrients, but having silica present means that the diatoms are a consistent competitor for essentially all of the same things as the Dinos.
And prorocentrum hang out on the sand a lot, so diatoms are a good choice as competitor.

 

[attiland]

Strange. It does seem to work for me? I've attached a screenshot. Basically it's like this, but they are moving.

Thanks so much for the response, very appreciated, but it does a touch contradict advice I have seen elsewhere. I have seen multiple people state that all dinos thrive in conditions of low nitrates and so water changes should be avoided to allow the levels to creep up to a little more than zero.

I've also seen that they effectively burrow into the sand bed at night and removing the sand completely is an option.

Lastly, I have several algae eaters. It's a small tank, but I have a turbo snail and two trochus as well as a little algae eating crab. The turbo snail, when I got him absolutely stripped the rocks of any algae, but he doesn't touch the dinos. I have read that they aren't really the fix for dinos. Forgive me, but are you sure you had dinos and not diatoms? I read they are a lot more problematic. I actually understand that the idea of dosing silica is to replace dinos with diatoms, which are a lot more easy to rid yourself of.

Amphidinium indeed.
good news it is beatable
Bad news may take longer than other types.
there is a relatively easy way to beat them and I did it myself. Prepare for silicates dosing.
The idea is you introduce a competition (diatoms) which will outcompete dinos than disappear when runs out of silicates.
As guide how I have done it is in the link below from my building tread.

Build Thread - The heater failure build

I have had aquarium since I can remember. Ok the very first one hardly can be called an aquarium as it was just a 3l jar with a 2-3 inch catfish in it my dad caught while we were fishing. And that fish didn’t last long with me as he had to go back to the river Danube. It was growing faster and...

www.reef2reef.com

also there is a tread dedicated for Amphidinium Dinos. Worth to read it.

Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

This thread is a spin-off from the @mcarroll very successful Dino thread The purpose is to discuss methods for removal and fighting against a particular strain of dinoflagellate - Large Cell Amphidinium. It seems to make up about a third of the cases of dinos. The reason this strain gets its...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[simecircle]

Amphidinium indeed.
good news it is beatable
Bad news may take longer than other types.
there is a relatively easy way to beat them and I did it myself. Prepare for silicates dosing.
The idea is you introduce a competition (diatoms) which will outcompete dinos than disappear when runs out of silicates.
As guide how I have done it is in the link below from my building tread.

Build Thread - The heater failure build

I have had aquarium since I can remember. Ok the very first one hardly can be called an aquarium as it was just a 3l jar with a 2-3 inch catfish in it my dad caught while we were fishing. And that fish didn’t last long with me as he had to go back to the river Danube. It was growing faster and...

www.reef2reef.com

also there is a tread dedicated for Amphidinium Dinos. Worth to read it.

Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

This thread is a spin-off from the @mcarroll very successful Dino thread The purpose is to discuss methods for removal and fighting against a particular strain of dinoflagellate - Large Cell Amphidinium. It seems to make up about a third of the cases of dinos. The reason this strain gets its...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks for your input. @taricha, believes it actually might be prorocentrum, but is telling me diatoms could still be useful allies. I see you are based in the UK - may I ask how you sourced Sponge Excel? I can't seem to find it over here?