Any benefit to combining vinegar with biopellets

[DiZASTiX]

Is there any benefit (or contraindication) to using both vinegar dosing and biopellets at the same time?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't think there's anything special about the combination, but it is OK to do if you do not drive nitrate too low.

If you choose one, I'd pick vinegar for a variety of reasons, most apparent of which is that you can more easily control the dose and timing of dosing. More different organisms (including bigger ones like corals) will be able to consume the acetate as well.

 

[DiZASTiX]

I guess the reason for the question is because of the BRS deal: buy a 1L bag of biopellets and get a media reactor free. I'm considering testing the media reactor to lower ammonia thru the use of AquaForest's brand of Zeo Max. I suppose it's cost justification, really--if there weren't such a deal, I probably wouldn't buy the media reactor (pellets) because I too prefer the idea of liquid dosing. Does that sound crazy?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm considering testing the media reactor to lower ammonia thru the use of AquaForest's brand of Zeo Max.

Lower ammonia? Do you have detectable ammonia now?

 

[DiZASTiX]

0.0 ppm by RedSea, but for a while, 0.2 ppm by RedSea. 0.25 ppm by API. An anthias died was the cause.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

0.0 ppm by RedSea, but for a while, 0.2 ppm by RedSea. 0.25 ppm by API. An anthias died was the cause.

I personally wouldn't do something to reduce ammonia. It is likely lower than those kits are reading if the dead fish is out.

 

[DiZASTiX]

Er. Admittedly, the dead fish could never be found. It's likely in the rockwork =\

 

[DiZASTiX]

Well. Nitrites [sp] shot thru the roof (1 ppm) .. tested 4 times concurrently with an API kit. The ammonia however, has reached 0 ppm on both the API and RedSea kits. Nitrates are now 160 ppm according to API.

Truly, it's as if the aquarium is going thru a cycle, and to that extent, there have been some unfortunate bleaching on three of the corals.

Perhaps if I were able to find the cadavers of the fish, this could have been avoided, that that is neither here nor there.

 

[VbReefer]

How did everything turn out?
What size tank was this? Under 75 I'm guessing.

I'd definitely get some nassairius snails and hermits, although I'm ready to pull all hermits aka...snail murdering jerks.
My point being A well stocked CUC should have been able to make short work of the remains of one anthias.

I was googling bio-pellets and vinegar as I've just started dosing lime saturated vinegar.
Day 4 now. Going slow.

Started with straight vinegar in hopes to jump-start the pellets. Thinking I just never had enough pellets to begin with.
After reading more I switched to lime saturated vinegar to hopefully negate any pH drop from the vinegar.
Probably going to pull the pellets and run GFO or another P reducing/absorbing media.
Any preference there?
210g turned 180g via 6" DSB
40b sump
150g volume.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The bacteria that that consume pellets are an unusual set that are unlikely to be driven by vinegar dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I used GFO and vinegar and think it is a fine combination.

 

[VbReefer]

Thank you.

 

[horsefarm5]

Im a little confused
I thought the pellets broke down via tumbling in reactor and in turn carbon fed the bacteria.
Please help me understand
I am using pellets to fight super high nitrates

 

[Halal Hotdog]

The bacteria that that consume pellets are an unusual set that are unlikely to be driven by vinegar dosing.

Bringing back an old post.

Hey Randy could you elaborate the stark differences between the bacteria that consume bio pellets vs vinegar?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bringing back an old post.

Hey Randy could you elaborate the stark differences between the bacteria that consume bio pellets vs vinegar?

Nearly all bacteria can consume acetate (vinegar) as can corals and a wide range of other organisms (sponges, etc.).

The polymer in biopellets (polyhydroxybutyrate) is a special carbon storage molecule that some bacteria use to store energy. Some specialist bacteria try to live on that polymer that is released from dead bacteria that were storing it. It is not a general attribute of bacteria to eat it.

Wikipedia lists some of the microorganisms known to make it, and those known to consume (degrade) it:

Polyhydroxybutyrate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Nearly all bacteria can consume acetate (vinegar) as can corals and a wide range of other organisms (sponges, etc.).

The polymer in biopellets (polyhydroxybutyrate) is a special carbon storage molecule that some bacteria use to store energy. Some specialist bacteria try to live on that polymer that is released from dead bacteria that were storing it. It is not a general attribute of bacteria to eat it.

Wikipedia lists some of the microorganisms known to make it, and those known to consume (degrade) it:

Polyhydroxybutyrate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Randy the biggest issue I have is the pH lowering properties of vinegar, have to dose 100-125mL/day and don’t use a dosing pump. I do dissolve some kalkwasser in it but can’t get to aggressive because of rise in alkalinity. I do notice the solution of kalk + vinegar giving off heat, should I be concerned of the chemical reaction that is occurring?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy the biggest issue I have is the pH lowering properties of vinegar, have to dose 100-125mL/day and don’t use a dosing pump. I do dissolve some kalkwasser in it but can’t get to aggressive because of rise in alkalinity. I do notice the solution of kalk + vinegar giving off heat, should I be concerned of the chemical reaction that is occurring?

The alkalinity and calcium rise should be pretty low for vinegar saturated with calcium hydroxide, but if it isn't, spreading out the dosing of ordinary vinegar helps.

Overall, vinegar shouldn't lower pH any more than vodka or biopellets, since it mostly ends up as CO2 anyway. it is just that vinegar drops pH more instantly and vodka does it more slowly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The heat is the hydroxide reacting with the H+ to make water:

Ca++ + 2OH- + 2CH3CO2- + 2H+ ---> Ca++ + 2CH3CO2- + 2H2O + heat
calcium hydroxide + vinegar --> calcium ion + acetate ion plus water plus heat

 

[Halal Hotdog]

The heat is the hydroxide reacting with the H+ to make water:

Ca++ + 2OH- + 2CH3CO2- + 2H+ ---> Ca++ + 2CH3CO2- + 2H2O + heat
calcium hydroxide + vinegar --> calcium ion + acetate ion plus water plus heat

So by mixing Kalkwasser with vinegar I am not reducing the availability of the acetic acid from being an effective carbon source to the bacteria, correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So by mixing Kalkwasser with vinegar I am not reducing the availability of the acetic acid from being an effective carbon source to the bacteria, correct?

Correct, it does not alter the carbon dosing effect. Straight vinegar becomes acetate instantly in aquarium water too.