Apex conversion to GHL

burningmime · Aug 14, 2021

Thanks for doing this!

Have not read the whole thing, but it's rare for someone to be able to make an unbiased and unemotional comparison after having actually used the products.

Billldg · Aug 15, 2021

The testing is coming along when comparing the KHD to the Alk reading of the Trident. For the most part, I am noticing the Trident to be a little lower than the KHD, but within reason. What is surprising is that they are both below the Hanna Alk checker consistently. The main difference is, with the KHD you have an option to offset said difference, I am not aware of the Trident being able to do the same. As of right now, the KHD has been the closest to the Hanna Alk checker.

Also, I am not noticing the reagent drift on this new tank as I did on my 120. I am not sure if its because I am not allowing the Apex to auto dose or what.

Billldg · Aug 15, 2021

rtparty said:
Hope Bill saw the BRS live yesterday. He got a little shout out. Like I said last page, we'll be seeing BRS videos soon enough on all of this

Sorry, I overlooked this. I am watching it now.

After watching it, I wish they said the rest of the post. In reality, it would have furthered what they are trying to do.

Thank you for posting, I would have never seen it. I keep looking at Ryan's face, and I do feel he understood what I was trying to say.

Billldg · Aug 16, 2021

Here is the test results. I meant to test 7 times, but feel asleep, LOL!!! I noticed both were consistent, but, one was consistently closer to the Hanna Alk checker. I did every Hanna test as my KHD and Trident were also testing. Thus no test for 8-15 at 00:00. At that time the KHD has 9.0 and the Trident has 8.87.

8-14 Hanna KHD Trident

1200: 9.7 | 9.0 | 8.62
1800: 9.4 | 9.0 | 8.96

8-15

0600: 9.5 | 9.1 | 9.06
1200: 9.3 | 9.2 | 8.93
1800: 9.4 | 9.4 | 9.12
0000: 9.4 | 9.4 | 8.87

Billldg · Aug 16, 2021

Based off of what I am seeing in the comparison between the KHD and Apex Trident, when compared to a Hanna Alk Checker, I will go with the KHD. The KHD was closer initially, and more consistent with what the Hanna was showing. Also something to think about, you can add a offset, or as GHL calls it, an adjust, to further bring into the alignment of the reading. I am not sure, nor have seen, any possible ability in the Trident. This is not talking bad, or against, the Apex Trident, I am simply trying to tell you reefers the truth. I can't compare the other readings, meaning Cal and Mag, until I get my IOND in and installed.

Sleepydoc · Aug 17, 2021

Billldg said:
Based off of what I am seeing in the comparison between the KHD and Apex Trident, when compared to a Hanna Alk Checker, I will go with the KHD. The KHD was closer initially, and more consistent with what the Hanna was showing. Also something to think about, you can add a offset, or as GHL calls it, an adjust, to further bring into the alignment of the reading. I am not sure, nor have seen, any possible ability in the Trident. This is not talking bad, or against, the Apex Trident, I am simply trying to tell you reefers the truth. I can't compare the other readings, meaning Cal and Mag, until I get my IOND in and installed.

I'm not sure if you can draw that conclusion. Below is a graph of the results you posted. The GHL was closer initially, but the Trident appears to track more consistently. Beyond that, do you know which reading is actually accurate? You are assuming the Hanna checker is accurate, but they can be off, too, and since the tank's alkalinity can vary through the day it's possible that any one of the three is accurate for any given reading.

Realistically, what I take from the graph below is all 3 are probably accurate enough for our purposes.

Billldg · Aug 17, 2021

Sleepydoc said:
I'm not sure if you can draw that conclusion. Below is a graph of the results you posted. The GHL was closer initially, but the Trident appears to track more consistently. Beyond that, do you know which reading is actually accurate? You are assuming the Hanna checker is accurate, but they can be off, too, and since the tank's alkalinity can vary through the day it's possible that any one of the three is accurate for any given reading.

Realistically, what I take from the graph below is all 3 are probably accurate enough for our purposes.

That's why I put up the numbers and graphs of both the KHD and Trident, to allow other reefers to make their own judgement based on these numbers.

SPS2020 · Aug 17, 2021

theatrus said:
My Litermeter / Spectrapure ATO pump is going on 5 years without as much as maintenance, if you’re looking for alternatives.

My LiterMeter is from the 90's and is an awesome, reliable piece of equipment. Not so sure about the new ones as they are a la carte.

Sleepydoc · Aug 17, 2021

Billldg said:
That's why I put up the numbers and graphs of both the KHD and Trident, to allow other reefers to make their own judgement based on these numbers.

I'd be interested to see a longer term comparison of the three; it's hard to draw firm conclusions from just 36 hours. Like you've said, there have been reports that the Trident readings become more inaccurate with time. I've also noticed the same with the Hanna - when I get to the end of a bottle of reagent it will often read different from a newer bottle.

It seems we see a similar thread on R2R every few months debating the validity of tests and the topic certainly comes up every time a new device gets introduced like the Trident, KH director & Hanna checker. (I thought I remembered a thread discussing the real-world accuracy & repeatability of the Hanna checker but couldn't find it.) Most people seem fairly confused by a reading of 5.04 with an accuracy of ±0.5.

Billldg · Aug 17, 2021

Sleepydoc said:
I'd be interested to see a longer term comparison of the three; it's hard to draw firm conclusions from just 36 hours. Like you've said, there have been reports that the Trident readings become more inaccurate with time. I've also noticed the same with the Hanna - when I get to the end of a bottle of reagent it will often read different from a newer bottle.

It seems we see a similar thread on R2R every few months debating the validity of tests and the topic certainly comes up every time a new device gets introduced like the Trident, KH director & Hanna checker. (I thought I remembered a thread discussing the real-world accuracy & repeatability of the Hanna checker but couldn't find it.) Most people seem fairly confused by a reading of 5.04 with an accuracy of ±0.5.

It may happen when the winter month's come in the GA.

BUT, they are always subjected to sceptics, no mater how thorough you are.

This thread is not about comparing the KHD, Trident, and the Hanna Alk checker. It is a simple comparison and conversion of the GHL and Apex controller, and a honest comparison in doing the conversion. I would love for others to start a thread doing the same, as it will give a more broad opinion.

Billldg · Aug 23, 2021

At Neptune’s request, I will send in my Trident to be checked.

Hopefully I will get it back at the same time I get in my IOND so I can do a comparison between the KHD and IOND vs the Trident when Alk, Cal, and Mag are tested. The reason I am sending in my Trident is a whole different topic and discussion.

Sleepydoc · Aug 24, 2021

Billldg said:
I am not sure if I disclosed this or not in this thread, but, mysteriously a ticket opened up from Apex about my Trident and the issues I have had with it. I know it didn't come from this thread. I actually know exactly were it came from, BUT, I will play along and see what they say. I just sent over the info needed for a RMA. I will send my Trident to Apex eventually, so I will not be able to compare anything until I get it back, as I will not give them a credit card to send me another one until my original one is sent back to me. I will send it as I want a honest comparison, and I will let Apex correct any issues before comparing the KHD and IOND vs. the Trident when Alk, Cal, and Mag are tested.

I will not say what caused the mysterious ticket, so please don't ask.

If your Trident is malfunctioning in some way then it makes sense to get it fixed; comparing a malfunctioning piece of equipment isn't an accurate comparison.

Of course, if something tends to malfunction often, that's also relevant to the comparison. Likewise, for testing equipment, the quality/reliability of the reagents comes into play. If the equipment is working perfectly but you can't get reagents or there's poor quality control you still get unreliable (or no) results.

In this situation, there's also the question of whether your trident will actually be a representative unit. If they end up 'hand tuning' it so it's really not equivalent to what someone would buy off the shelf then that kind of ruins things, too. I guess we'll have to see when you get it back.

I was looking forward to the comparison - now we'll have to wait.

Billldg · Aug 25, 2021

I just talked with a Rep from Neptune about returning my Trident, and he was a pretty cool dude. So it is settled, I will send in my Trident to be looked at. When I get it back I hope to be able to give a good and honest opinion between the KHD/IOND and the Trident. I just need for my IOND to be shipped...LOL!!!

Billldg · Aug 30, 2021

I just had the first actual major issue with the Apex Trident. Ironically, its just before I am shutting it down for shipment to Neptune. I notice a sudden spike in the Trident Alk readings vs the GHL KHD. The KHD was showing a constant 8.8-8.9 reading, initially, so was the Trident...until the last day or two. While the KHD was showing 8.8-8.9, the Trident suddenly jumped up to 11.8-12.7. I just shut down the Trident to ship it to Neptune, and when I removed the reagents to start the shut down, I see why the readings were off. I did a complete reagent replacement on the Trident before doing the comparison, so I wouldn't have to deal with the fan boys. I even said this in the comparison thread. WELL, the Alk reagent was empty. The Apex Fusion showed that I was at 73 percent...HMM!!!

The GHL KHD and the Neptune Trident. If I was using the Apex auto dosing, this would have created an issue.

And for the Apex Fanboys, enough, I have owned the Trident for almost 2 years, and done enough reagent changes to know how to do it. I use the task every time to do it.

Mywifeisgunnakillme · Aug 30, 2021

Billldg said:
What is surprising is that they are both below the Hanna Alk checker consistently.

That is exactly what i noticed as to KH Director and Hanna. Former is about 0.5 lower.

Billldg · Aug 30, 2021

I just started to tinker around with the Programmable Logic yesterday. I set up a my UV sterilizer and skimmer to turn off when programmed to allow the bacteria that I dosing to deal with my Dino's to settle. I initially set it up as a feed mode, ;Facepalm , but changed it to a maintenance mode. It was pretty simply. It is different from Apex programming. Let me get more familiar with the GHL Programmable Logic before I compare the two. I will say, it is different, but the same.

Sleepydoc · Aug 30, 2021

Billldg said:
I just had the first actual major issue with the Apex Trident. Ironically, its just before I am shutting it down for shipment to Neptune. I notice a sudden spike in the Trident Alk readings vs the GHL KHD. The KHD was showing a constant 8.8-8.9 reading, initially, so was the Trident...until the last day or two. While the KHD was showing 8.8-8.9, the Trident suddenly jumped up to 11.8-12.7. I just shut down the Trident to ship it to Neptune, and when I removed the reagents to start the shut down, I see why the readings were off. I did a complete reagent replacement on the Trident before doing the comparison, so I wouldn't have to deal with the fan boys. I even said this in the comparison thread. WELL, the Alk reagent was empty. The Apex Fusion showed that I was at 73 percent...HMM!!!

The GHL KHD and the Neptune Trident. If I was using the Apex auto dosing, this would have created an issue.

And for the Apex Fanboys, enough, I have owned the Trident for almost 2 years, and done enough reagent changes to know how to do it. I use the task every time to do it.

Wow - any idea how the reagent got drained so quickly? I'm assuming it was full when you changed it and you would have noticed if it were empty. Since the Trident thought it was 75% full it presumably wasn't from running tests. It makes me think that either a pump got stuck on or there was some sort of leak in the system. Were there any signs of leaks inside the unit? Regardless, it's a bit surprising/concerning that the system didn't noice there was no reagent. I'm guessing they set it to measure the total volume used and it isn't set up to detect that sort of failure.

I'm curious as to what would happen with the KH director if it ran out of reagent - does it detect an empty bottle and what does it read if the reagent bottle is empty?

Sleepydoc · Aug 30, 2021

Billldg said:
I just started to tinker around with the Programmable Logic yesterday. I set up a my UV sterilizer and skimmer to turn off when programmed to allow the bacteria that I dosing to deal with my Dino's to settle. I initially set it up as a feed mode, ;Facepalm , but changed it to a maintenance mode. It was pretty simply. It is different from Apex programming. Let me get more familiar with the GHL Programmable Logic before I compare the two. I will say, it is different, but the same.

fundamentally, most programming is the same - you create a logical sequence of decisions and steps. The differences arise in the implementation. Creating a system that is powerful and easy to use is not easy. Apex can be quite powerful but the more advanced programming gets to be fairly obtuse, too.

Since most controllers (Apex included) make the basic stuff fairly easy, I'm interested to hear your comparison between the two for the more advanced programming.

You mention a 'maintenance mode.' Apex allows 4 'feed' modes which are really just timed controller states that you can use for whatever you want. It sounds like the GHL has dedicated feed modes vs maintenance modes? What's the difference and how are they implemented? Is there a limit on how many you can have?

A somewhat annoying limitation of the Apex is the only way you can trigger a feed mode is through the fusion interface; you can't use a button or other programming to trigger them. Can you do so with the GHL?

vangvace · Aug 31, 2021

Sleepydoc said:
I'm curious as to what would happen with the KH director if it ran out of reagent - does it detect an empty bottle and what does it read if the reagent bottle is empty?

The KH Director measures a ph shift in the sample water and will error out if the test takes to long to complete.

You can also annotate how much reagent is in the holding container and a low volume warning. 500ml or 1000ml if you use their bottles, but it is user definable. The same annotation can be made for the discharge line of the director if you are placing it into a waste container so it can be emptied. I personally, empty back into the sump. The calculated usage is based on the individual dosing pump head's calibrations.

I hope that helps.