aquavitro

[chipmunkofdoom2]

just curious, any interesting find?

I was scrolling through R2R for advise on eight four, and found this thread. quite intersesting, but i am curious to see if you found anything worth discussing over your 1 week period of tracking.

eight.four works just fine as an alkalinity supplement. It will also raise pH, which is desirable in many reef aquaria. The issue that Randy and others (like myself) take with the product is that it explicitly states that it will not raise carbonate alkalinity at all. This is simply not true. Other than removing CO2 from the water, there are no mechanism of which I am aware that will raise pH without raising alkalinity in seawater.

Seachem's statements about eight.four at the very least suggest they don't fully understand how carbonate alkalinity and pH work in seawater. Other alternatives, like Randy's DIY two-part (or Randy's new higher-pH boost two-part) are likely much cheaper and are designed by someone who has authoritative knowledge of seawater chemistry, Dr. Holmes-Farley himself. For these reasons, I would personally use Randy's DIY supplements. Having said that, the product will still work and likely has no harmful effects to reef aquaria so long as it's not overdosed.

EDIT: it appears that Seachem no longer claims that eight.four does not affect alkalinity. Their product page now advertises that eight.four does in fact raise alkalinity.

The advertising for balance is still incorrect, as noted in a following post.

 

[DSC reef]

just curious, any interesting find?

I was scrolling through R2R for advise on eight four, and found this thread. quite intersesting, but i am curious to see if you found anything worth discussing over your 1 week period of tracking.

No matter what product I've used it's never been equal dosing. I've had great success with aquavitro and choose to stick with them. Typically 20 to 30ml a day for alkalinity and 20ml of calcification every 2 days keeps things in check. I recently ran out of calcification and have been using ME coral calcium chloride and I have to dose 90ml to achieve the same goal as 20ml of aquavitro calcification. Not sure why. Aquavitro has always been a great product for us and will continue to stay with there products.

 

[DSC reef]

eight.four works just fine as an alkalinity supplement. It will also raise pH, which is desirable in many reef aquaria. The issue that Randy and others (like myself) take with the product is that it explicitly states that it will not raise carbonate alkalinity at all. This is simply not true. Other than removing CO2 from the water, there are no mechanism of which I am aware that will raise pH without raising alkalinity in seawater.

Seachem's statements about eight.four at the very least suggest they don't fully understand how carbonate alkalinity and pH work in seawater. Other alternatives, like Randy's DIY two-part (or Randy's new higher-pH boost two-part) are likely much cheaper and are designed by someone who has authoritative knowledge of seawater chemistry, Dr. Holmes-Farley himself. For these reasons, I would personally use Randy's DIY supplements. Having said that, the product will still work and likely has no harmful effects to reef aquaria so long as it's not overdosed.

Are you referring to balance or eight.four?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Are you referring to balance or eight.four?

I was referring to eight.four specifically. Upon double checking, it appears that Seachem has finally updated their product page to state that eight.four affects alkalinity. Which it does. So in that regard, I humbly stand corrected.

Aquavitro balance, however, is still advertised as "[raising] pH without affecting calcium and alkalinity." The main ingredients of this product are described as sodium and potassium hydroxides. Products containing hydroxide will raise carbonate alkalinity through the same mechanism that calcium hydroxide (limewater or kalkwasser) does.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No matter what product I've used it's never been equal dosing. I've had great success with aquavitro and choose to stick with them. Typically 20 to 30ml a day for alkalinity and 20ml of calcification every 2 days keeps things in check. I recently ran out of calcification and have been using ME coral calcium chloride and I have to dose 90ml to achieve the same goal as 20ml of aquavitro calcification. Not sure why. Aquavitro has always been a great product for us and will continue to stay with there products.

Aquavitro calcification would very likely prevent equal parts dosing since it is both a calcium supplement, and a supplement of some uncertain amount of alkalinity, depending on exactly what happens to all the polygluconate in your tank.

IMO, it's quite sad that Seachem won't address this issue and explain to folks that it adds alkalinity too, despite the fact that I have publicly explained it to them (12 years ago!!!) and they seemed to agree.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=616674

Seachem:
"In theory, yes, it could be a single source supplement for balanced Ca/Alk. However, this is likely not the case in practice given the many unknown variables encountered in most systems. "

 

[DSC reef]

I was referring to eight.four specifically. Upon double checking, it appears that Seachem has finally updated their product page to state that eight.four affects alkalinity. Which it does. So in that regard, I humbly stand corrected.

Aquavitro balance, however, is still advertised as "[raising] pH without affecting calcium and alkalinity." The main ingredients of this product are described as sodium and potassium hydroxides. Products containing hydroxide will raise carbonate alkalinity through the same mechanism that calcium hydroxide (limewater or kalkwasser) does.

I've used balance and I agree, it definitely raises alkalinity.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I've used balance and I agree, it definitely raises alkalinity.

And objectively, there's really nothing wrong with that. Many people find benefit to supplements that raise alkalinity that also raise pH. Balance likely gives a pretty solid increase in pH too, since sodium and potassium hydroxide are very basic.

My sole complaint is that they're not more honest with what their supplements do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And objectively, there's really nothing wrong with that. Many people find benefit to supplements that raise alkalinity that also raise pH. Balance likely gives a pretty solid increase in pH too, since sodium and potassium hydroxide are very basic.

My sole complaint is that they're not more honest with what their supplements do.

Yes, hydroxide is a fine alk and pH boosting additive. It's the basis of my latest DIY two part systems. [emoji4]

 

[GoVols]

FWIW:
Stopped using the Salinity salt mix.
Don't know if it has borate in it , but it was throwing off my test kits.

Went back to regular IO (for now) and had 300 gallons that needed to be used up, anyways.

 

[brandon0921]

Aquavitro calcification would very likely prevent equal parts dosing since it is both a calcium supplement, and a supplement of some uncertain amount of alkalinity, depending on exactly what happens to all the polygluconate in your tank.
"

You are absolutely spot on with this. I've been dosing 8.4 and Calcification for a few years on an Apex Dos. I just recently noticed a drop in Ca due to the line coming out of the solution bottle unnoticed. Before taking off to NH for a weekend get away, I kicked the Calcification dosing up .4ml/day and came back to an elevated level of Alkalinity (from 8.5 -> 10dKH) and necrosis on two separate pieces. I can only summarize that Calcification is the culprit, especially after reading what you mentioned. Since my Ca is still low, I bumped the Eight.Four down a few ml and did a WC. Really hoping everything balances out soon.

 

[brandon0921]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I doubt you check this regularly being an old thread, but if so, I'm hoping you can lend some assistance. I continue to struggle balancing my parameters back to 8.5dKH and 420ppm as I currently sit at 10dKH and 390-400ppm of calcium after increasing my Calcification dosing due to the problem mentioned in my post above. Necrosis seems to have halted (thank god), but my PE is poor on most pieces as the instability continues on as I am unable to raise calcium using Calcification, without decreasing Eight.Four, due to the unknown amount of dKH in the product. I've gone ahead and purchased some B-ionic ready to ditch the Aquavitro line once I can get everything back in check. Wondering if you could lend some assistance in determining how much Alk might be coming from Calcification? For the past 2 years I've been dosing as follows;

9ml of Eight.Four = 1.25 dKH
4.7ml of Calcification = 9.4mg/l (I think 9.4 ppm???)

I'm unable to link my screenshot from the dosing calculator for B-ionic, but if I input an increase of the values above I get 18.7ml/day of alkalinity needed and 19.3ml/of calcium needed. Would 18.5ml of each be a safe place to start?

Your help is much appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

[brandon0921]

Additional information:

Salt = Aquavitro Salinity, weekly 5g WC
System size = 36g, I estimate 30-32g with rock and sand
Doser = Apex dos, lines at opposing sides of DT above powerheads
Other dosing = Phyto, 1.8ppm of nitrate daily, 1ml of Acropower daily
Livestock = SPS dominant

 

[Halfcut skeleton]

Here's my discussion with Seachem showing their total lack of understanding of the polygluconate calcium which is also in the Aquavitro product I mentioned:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=616674

Dr Farley, the dam fish stores are always pushing this kind of stuff on me and other new hobbyist. Is the Brs 2 part a good way to keep up with parameters?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dr Farley, the dam fish stores are always pushing this kind of stuff on me and other new hobbyist. Is the Brs 2 part a good way to keep up with parameters?

I designed the BRS two part (really a three part). It is an inexpensive alternative to complete two parts (like ESV-B-ionic). Many people use it and like it. It is technically not as good as a complete two part, but I think if you do normal water changes you will be unlikely to see a difference. Biggest difference is likely to be in potassium levels, which may slowly decline using it.

i discuss the recipe here:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com