...are closed loops becoming obsolete?

chimmike

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So let's talk about the DC pumps for a minute. Say you set up a 2 outlet closed loop (times 2) using DC pumps. You could theoretically via Apex control each pump to create some sort of wave motion, and virtually control the exact flow (and therefore energy consumption) of the pump?

I've been out of the game 3 years and stuff has changed so much even since then.
 

gcarroll

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So let's talk about the DC pumps for a minute. Say you set up a 2 outlet closed loop (times 2) using DC pumps. You could theoretically via Apex control each pump to create some sort of wave motion, and virtually control the exact flow (and therefore energy consumption) of the pump?


I've been out of the game 3 years and stuff has changed so much even since then.

Yes, you could do that. The higher end DC pumps (Ecotech, Royal Exclusiv, Abyzz, …) often have built in controllers allowing them to run those unique profiles whether you have a Apex or not.
 
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143MPCo

143MPCo

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...without going into too much detail the company that I work for has done extensive longevity testing on DC pumps, below is a snippet of a recent release of findings.

"DC pumps also tend to be more efficient. However, AC pumps usually are designed for higher speeds and larger bursts of power. They also have a longer working lifespan than DC pumps."

...what the information does not provide is a consensus around true lifespan percentage based on pump design, power supply , etc vs AC pumps. I've been trying to find any information related to useable lifespan of hobbyist grade DC pumps we employ, but for obvious reasons, they are keeping this sort of information on a need-to-know. That's not to say that they are doing anything wrong, as I can understand the need to keep intellectual property secure but is something to consider.
 

gcarroll

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...without going into too much detail the company that I work for has done extensive longevity testing on DC pumps, below is a snippet of a recent release of findings.

"DC pumps also tend to be more efficient. However, AC pumps usually are designed for higher speeds and larger bursts of power. They also have a longer working lifespan than DC pumps."
That's a very broad statement that can be true is some cases and completely false in others. It just depends on the design of the pump. Without knowing what exact pumps were tested, it's hard to shoot holes in the conclusion. However, as we have found, some often do not choose the right pump for the job.
 

ksed

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Just curious. Would you be able to explain what DC pumps are, and the different types that are commonly used in this hobby?

In regards to lifespan it varies greatly from manufacture to manufacture. In this hobby you can't generalize, you have to be more specific.




...without going into too much detail the company that I work for has done extensive longevity testing on DC pumps, below is a snippet of a recent release of findings.

"DC pumps also tend to be more efficient. However, AC pumps usually are designed for higher speeds and larger bursts of power. They also have a longer working lifespan than DC pumps."

...what the information does not provide is a consensus around true lifespan percentage based on pump design, power supply , etc vs AC pumps. I've been trying to find any information related to useable lifespan of hobbyist grade DC pumps we employ, but for obvious reasons, they are keeping this sort of information on a need-to-know. That's not to say that they are doing anything wrong, as I can understand the need to keep intellectual property secure but is something to consider.
 
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143MPCo

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Just curious. Would you be able to explain what DC pumps are, and the different types that are commonly used in this hobby?

Basically a DC pumps converts direct current electrical power into mechanical power.
The most common types rely on the forces produced by magnetic fields.

As for pumps you only have to google Saltwater Aquarium DC Pumps to be provided with a plethora of choices.

In regards to lifespan it varies greatly from manufacture to manufacture. In this hobby you can't generalize, you have to be more specific.

Generalized post or not, as I noted above and maybe I should have chosen to add...

"...what the information does not provide is a consensus around true lifespan percentage OF ANY pump based on pump design, power supply , etc. vs AC pumps. I've been trying to find any information related to useable lifespan of hobbyist grade DC pumps we employ, but for obvious reasons, they are keeping this sort of information on a need-to-know. That's not to say that they are doing anything wrong, as I can understand the need to keep intellectual property secure but is something to consider."
 

ksed

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I don't want to derail this thread but just want to clarify the common misunderstanding of DC and AC pumps.
The answer you provided is not good enough. Perhaps I was looking for a more technical answer.
Here is some valuable information for you to read and perhaps this will put your comparison of DC vs AC pumps to rest.

Motor.aspxhttp://www.engineering.com/Designer...icleID/8131/What-is-a-DC-Brushless-Motor.aspx

Once you have read this I will ask what are DC pumps?
 
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143MPCo

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I questioned the intent of your post from the beginning but I still give you the benefit of the doubt and responded, albeit in layman's terms but I responded nevertheless.

...your attempt to belittle someone is a sign that you lack maturity to have a productive conversation let alone an argument to express your views on this subject constructively.

I'm glad that you learned how to use the search engine to find the documentation that you were looking for, along with the answers that you needed.
 

ksed

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I'am not here to argue , but here to provide constructive information like the link provided . It would be greatly appreciated if you would stop posting misleading information.
 

dbl

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Jumping back a few posts, and getting back on track, the following is simply my opinion. I believe it's difficult to determine longevity of anything in this hobby (not just pumps), due to the numerous and often times unknown variables we deal with trying to replicate nature in our living rooms.

As an example, I had a Little Giant 4MDQX, which by all indications should last for 5-10+ years (if you go by others experience and reviews) seize up in a little over two years (and yes, it was maintained). I have another, same pump and model, that is over 5 years old and still works flawlessly.

I believe we make our buying decisions based on our own personal experience first, then rely on the research and experience of others. As stated above, sometimes we get it right, sometimes not so much.

Back to the point of this thread, and I said it earlier, in my opinion it's been established there are still situations where a CL is appropriate. The advent of some of the newer technologies has the potential of saving the CL user a little operating money.

In fact, go back to posts #97 and #99, you'll see the poster has elected to do a CL on his new build...so the closed loop is clearly not obsolete...at least not yet.
 

gcarroll

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Back to the point of this thread, and I said it earlier, in my opinion it's been established there are still situations where a CL is appropriate. The advent of some of the newer technologies has the potential of saving the CL user a little operating money.

In fact, go back to posts #97 and #99, you'll see the poster has elected to do a CL on his new build...so the closed loop is clearly not obsolete...at least not yet.
I wanted to clear something up. I am only doing a closed loop on my next system to show that it is not obsolete. In this thread I have continually criticized 143MPCo for making broad statements that are flat out wrong. When you are a highly influential member of this community and make statements like he has, you need to be able to back it up when questioned. If you can't, maybe you should question yourself as to why you are posting your statement in the first place.

IMO, ksed was absolutely right in asking for a clarification on 143MPCo's knowledge on DC. He is also right when he says that 143MPCo's comments need to be more specific. His comments are so generalized, that they can also make his intended statement untrue. I myself an not a fan of people or companies widely exaggerating their claims to bolster their argument or show their product is better. This is exactly what I saw when I first read post #1 in this thread.
 

twilliard

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Hey guys I am unclear why there is an argument on ac verses dc.
I would love to go back through all these posts but as a valued member here please specify the exact question at hand since time is limited.
I have 20 years in the electrical field
What is the question at hand that is unclear?
Isn't this thread about the current use of closed loop systems?
Lets get this straightened out now without further degradation
 

gcarroll

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It is clear that there are no standards in this industry. Below are questions that need answering as it seems we all have different definitions. I know from experience that just because a company claims a pump is DC, does not mean it meets the


My question is how can we define a DC pump?

How can we define a DC powerhead?


These are comments in this thread that make it clear that the message is getting muddied!

one just has to look at wattages used on a AC vs DC pump to see that you're at a much higher kilowatt an hour cost for just one pump.
AC pumps can be just as efficient as DC pumps.

Case closed. HELLO DC PUMPS, goodbye loop!
What does a DC pump have to do with a DC pump. You can use a DC pump for a closed loop.

seriously, you bring up an interest point and that's the fact that the DC pumps are controllable allowing you to place the reef into, dare I say it (this is the I.T. in me speaking
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), "sleep-mode" and conserving even more power consumptions during the intervals it's not needed... that also has additional benefits to its inhabitants and something to be considered when looking for a pump.
A pump does not have to be DC to be controllable.

DON'T FORGET the heat generated by powerheads.....part of the equation. Buy 110v pumps directly under a tank also heat the tank.
So what the heck does this mean? Like 110v pumps produce more heat? Not if the wattage is the same as the DC

"DC pumps also tend to be more efficient. However, AC pumps usually are designed for higher speeds and larger bursts of power. They also have a longer working lifespan than DC pumps."
You can't make a statement like this because it is not always the case. In fact it can be argued that it is just false. But that depends on what your definition of a DC pump is. Problem is we can't get a definition from him to understand his position. He might just be misinformed or maybe we are?

 

twilliard

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It is clear that there are no standards in this industry. Below are questions that need answering as it seems we all have different definitions. I know from experience that just because a company claims a pump is DC, does not mean it meets the


My question is how can we define a DC pump?
A DC pump uses permanently placed magnets on the rotor and utilizes an external DC power supply

How can we define a DC powerhead?
Same as above. DC needs to have a magnetic rotor and DC power source


These are comments in this thread that make it clear that the message is getting muddied!

AC pumps can be just as efficient as DC pumps.
True they can be but if you look at the nameplates you can determine efficiency from the given information.
I have yet to see in my 20 years a TRUE efficient AC pump

What does a DC pump have to do with a DC pump. You can use a DC pump for a closed loop.
Yes you can use DC in any pump configuration.

A pump does not have to be DC to be controllable.
This is also true but missing the two major differences. You have to control AC by variable frequency and DC by pulse width modulation.

So what the heck does this mean? Like 110v pumps produce more heat? Not if the wattage is the same as the DC
The wattage created is mainly by the power supply in a DC circuit. In AC the heat is created within the rotor and the stator.

You can't make a statement like this because it is not always the case. In fact it can be argued that it is just false. But that depends on what your definition of a DC pump is. Problem is we can't get a definition from him to understand his position. He might just be misinformed or maybe we are?
A DC pump is a permanent magnetic motor controlled through PWM.
An AC pump has no PWM control.
So technically they both have the same build, controlled in different manners and also is either externally powered or direct powered.
 

ksed

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That does not mean that the motor block is DC though. Most if not all of the DC pumps use an A/C motor ;)
Many of these pumps have various forms of commutation. When the signal is sent to the pump regardless of commutation used it is received by the pump in an alternation current. Current needs to alternate in order for the rotor to start. As the link states the DC term is mainly used for marketing purposes. We perhaps should be looking at what aspects make a pump more efficient rather than generalizing the AC vs DC pump.
 

gcarroll

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so if that's you you want it defined, then how in the world can it be more efficient since the design inherently looses efficiency in the conversion from AC to DC. Companies like Jebao have a long history of wildly lying about their flow rates so I'm not sure their pumps should ever be taken at face value.
 

twilliard

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Do I have to break out my "kill a watt" to prove consumption ?
Also ac to dc power supplies are solid state and has minimal loss in the conversion.
It only took 100 posts to start questioning ac and dc when this was already battled in the late 1800's
 

twilliard

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so if that's you you want it defined, then how in the world can it be more efficient since the design inherently looses efficiency in the conversion from AC to DC. Companies like Jebao have a long history of wildly lying about their flow rates so I'm not sure their pumps should ever be taken at face value.
All of a sudden I hear crickets in the calm..
Where did Jabao come from and why the company bashing?
 

ksed

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What is your term of minimal loss in conversion? 1, 5, 10, 15%.
I can give you an example, brand A 100 watt pump which operates on 12 v has an motor efficiency of approx. mid 80's%. If you take brand B 200 and 400 w pump which operates in 110 v it has a motor efficiency of approx. mid to high 90's%. That primarily has to do with the conversion from 110 v to 12 v. Your interpretation of minimal loss might not be the same as others. As far as I am concerned that it a dramatic drop. I am not going to mention the brand but both of these pumps which I am comparing are from the same company and both are controllable and what most people will associate as DC pumps. But wait how can you have a controllable DC pump at 110 v. Perhaps its an AC pump but then it can't be more efficient than the 12v DC pump because it's a AC pump.
This is what I mean by generalizing, there is more to a pump that makes a pump efficient than simply saying AC vs DC.
 
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