Are GFCI's Necessary. A Thought for not having them for your tank

[Brew12]

I have an electrician coming in on Monday to install an outlet with a dedicated breaker for my build - if I brought this up to him/her do you think they would know what I was talking about and know how to install one? I rent the place and have gotten permission - but my sister owns the adjoining house and I would REALLY hate to burn her house down.

Like thats on my list of top 3 things I really dont want to do.

An electrician would definitely understand what this is.

If you have a larger system I would not have them install the new circuit as a GFCI. It will take a little work on your end, but I would create multiple GFCI circuits for reliability. As I've said before, I wouldn't run a system without GFCI, but I also won't run my entire system on a single GFCI.

 

[WannaBSpaghetti]

An electrician would definitely understand what this is.

If you have a larger system I would not have them install the new circuit as a GFCI. It will take a little work on your end, but I would create multiple GFCI circuits for reliability. As I've said before, I wouldn't run a system without GFCI, but I also won't run my entire system on a single GFCI.

Would you consider the (roughly) 65g Red Sea Reefer 250 to be a "Larger System"?

 

[alton]

I think everyone here has spelled out how important GFCI receptacles and their use on our aquariums. Some say we don’t need them, well when was the last time someone dropped a curling iron or blow dryer in a bathroom sink that was full of water? Or dropped their toaster in the kitchen sink? But yet we have protection in those areas. When was the last time a kid tried to stick something in a duplex receptacle? But yet we are now required to install tamper proof receptacles in all homes and in commercial facilities where children have access to that area.

A man I knew for 40+ years was working on a water pipe that was leaking underground. There was a 120v line in the same ditch that energized the mud he was digging up to find the leak. Although it was not enough to kill him instantly he could not pull out of the mud he was standing in and after some time his heart stopped. Another individual a few miles from my house was cleaning out his attic, he was soaked in sweat when he laid on his back to fetch something from a low spot in the attic, coming in contact with a piece of romex with a nick. He also was not able to get off, and he lost his life that day.

So many times I have heard stories of people coming in contact with 120 volts and say “120 volts is not that bad”. What they do not understand is they were partially insulated either by standing on dry carpet and padding, or having adequate soles on their shoes. Adding water to the mix increases the grounding potential and takes that minor shock up to something that can stop your heart or get it out of rhythm.

 

[Brew12]

Would you consider the (roughly) 65g Red Sea Reefer 250 to be a "Larger System"?

I would, but it is all based on what you are comfortable with. If you never travel and/or use a controller to allow you to detect a trip, you could be fine on a single GFCI. It's just not something I am comfortable with. I always want some flow through my DT even with a GFCI trip.

This is the quick and easy project I did for my current build. I use it to turn one regular outlet into two separate GFCI outlets.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-gfci-installation.342874/

 

[Brew12]

It was mentioned earlier, but this is how I set it up when using an Apex.

The 4 cords that are plugged into the power bar feed the 4 GFCI receptacle pairs. I then plugged in the 4 submerged and controlled devices into those outlets. This way a single failed component would only take out that single device.

 

[AlexG]

Its simple GFCI is a safety devices designed to save lives. Electricity, water, & living things don't mix well together. I run GFCI & AFCI using two 20amp circuits for my system to provide redundancy in the instance of a false trip. If you are seeing these devices trip then you should be asking yourself why this is happening and should not be considering their removal. It is likely that something is wrong and needs to be corrected even if it is the GFCI itself. If you don't know how to work with electricity hire a professional to assist. Its not worth your life or the life anyone else to dismiss some basic electrical safety/NEC electrical code and forgo the use of GFCI. Years ago I ran some tanks without GFCI and I was severely shocked because I made a mistake when water will spilling out of the tank I accidentally touched a heater controller. I was lucky and I will not take that risk again with my life or the life of anyone else. If you still don't believe GFCIs save lives go to the Electrical Safety Foundation International (ESFI) website and check out their statistics on GFCIs https://www.esfi.org/resource/groun...pters-preventing-electrocution-since-1973-614

Breaker - Purpose protects the wires from over current

GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) - Purpose detects ground faults and de-energizes the circuit or outlets downstream from the GFCI in the event of a ground fault over the specifications normally 4-5 milliamps

AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) - Purpose detects current generated from an arc between the hot and neutral wires and de-energizes the circuit or outlets downstream from the AFCI in the event of an arc fault: Designed as fire prevention safety device

 

[Greybeard]

Are GFI's necessary? Nope. Many folks here are running without them, so, obviously, they're not required equipment.

They might, however, save your tank, or even your life, under the right conditions.

It's cheap insurance. I can't see any reason NOT to use a GFCI outlet on our tanks.

 

[hart24601]

Are GFI's necessary? Nope. Many folks here are running without them, so, obviously, they're not required equipment.

They might, however, save your tank, or even your life, under the right conditions.

It's cheap insurance. I can't see any reason NOT to use a GFCI outlet on our tanks.

Couldn’t they also under the right conditions kill your tank with a false trip?

These and ground probe threads are always interesting. Personally I do run tank on GFCI but not the return pump. Not on my pico tho, nothing on GFCI there.

If someone wants total safety then don’t keep fish tanks. What if that tank gets pulled over and crushed someone? Bang into it and break the glass and get a severe laceration? I’m not sure electrocution is more probable.

I am not advocating one way or the other on this subject, just trying to add another perspective.

 

[Brew12]

Couldn’t they also under the right conditions kill your tank with a false trip?

Not if set up correctly.

Personally I do run tank on GFCI but not the return pump.

How do you protect your tank if the return pump fails and you don't notice?

 

[hart24601]

Not if set up correctly.


How do you protect your tank if the return pump fails and you don't notice?

Apex temp probe in display emails me.

 

[Greybeard]

I get an Apex heartbeat alarm if my GFCI trips... not to mention how likely I am to notice when I walk by

As to likelihood... you can't eliminate risk from life. After all... none of us are getting out of here alive, right?

You can, however, do simple things to reduce risk. I've got fire extinguishers under my sink, and in my garage. Smoke alarms in my hallways. There's a rollover bar on my tractor... I pay good money for homeowners insurance, health insurance, car insurance... always with the hopes that I'll never need it. Heck, I carry a pistol every day, and pray I never need it.

A GFCI is a few bucks. Chances of it saving my life, or even my tank, is slim, yes, but the chance is there. There is no downside. A properly wired and functioning GFCI doesn't just 'trip' without some reason to do so. Mine has been in place for nearly 3 years now... and the only time it's tripped is when I press the test button. Hopefully, it'll stay that way.

 

[hart24601]

Is the chance of it saving your life like 1 in 1000, or 1 in 100 million is the question I’m curious about although the chances are probably so low there just isn’t even enough data out there to calculate it.

I just hear so much fear in the media I just get wary of when I hear another thing to be fearful of in the hobby.

 

[Greybeard]

Nothing to be afraid of.

A quick poke around Google tells me that something like 300 people die each year in the USA due to electrocution. The biggest single culprit seems to be hot tubs... aquariums don't rate their own grouping. Out of 300 MILLION people in this country, that'd be a million to one shot. Your chances of winning the lottery are better. US electrical standards are high. Note: Buying cheap, non-UL listed gear probably raises your chances of shock, or fire, a good bit!

Chances of a GFCI and grounding probe saving your life, very very slim. Chances of it preventing an electrical fire are somewhat better. Chances of it preventing a non-fatal but uncomfortable shock are greater still.

There is NO BENEFIT to NOT running a GFCI. None. A properly installed GFCI doesn't just 'trip' for no reason. Don't want to run one? Don't. No skin off my nose. Chances are excellent that you'll be just fine. Me? I'll spend the $10, if for no other reason than it helps me sleep at night.

 

[LMDAVE]

For those of us that do not have a dedicated outlet and just used the nearest standard duplex available in your home when you set up your system, you may be in the position I am in where access to change your duplex outlet is behind your tank and would require draining and moving your tank. One solution in this situation is finding an outlet that is upstream from your aquarium (meaning the wiring coming from your panel feeds this other outlet before your aquarium outlet) and you can install a GFCI outlet in that spot and your aquarium outlet will then be protected also.

This topic always scares me, because I know now that I should have a GFCI outlet on my aquarium. I find myself powering off everything but my lights when I doing maintenance, just out of paranoia. So I will be installing one soon, and adding a grounding probe with it.

 

[Brew12]

Apex temp probe in display emails me.

Why would that same concept not work if you also had the return pump on a separate GFCI?

Is the chance of it saving your life like 1 in 1000, or 1 in 100 million is the question I’m curious about although the chances are probably so low there just isn’t even enough data out there to calculate it.

I just hear so much fear in the media I just get wary of when I hear another thing to be fearful of in the hobby.

I understand where you are coming from with this. Historical data shows around 800 people a year in the US being electrocuted at home prior to GFCI's becoming mandatory. That number is down to under 200 a year now. Is that a large number. No, not at all. Is it still a tragedy for those 200 individuals families who are killed? Of course.

Life is all about weighing risk/benefits. Would I let me son put his hand in my tank with it being 1 in a 100 million odds of dying if he did? I probably would. Would I spend $20 to make the odds 1 in 2 billion before he did it? You bet. We all have our own thresholds.

And this doesn't even get into the 140,000 fires started by electricity each year and the additional 400 deaths. Would all of these be prevented by a GFCI? Nope. And obviously, not all of them are started by aquariums.

I would argue that in this case, it isn't something to be fearful of. It is a risk that can be cheaply and easily mitigated. Just like the infamous stuck on heater. Lots of people use heaters without a problem and don't use a controller. Even if the risk is low, I still use and recommend using a temperature controller. Why not almost completely remove the risk?

 

[Greybeard]

https://www.amazon.com/Tower-Manufa...d=1530641030&sr=8-5&keywords=gfci+power+strip

 

[Dragon52]

Not sure what type of breaker resets itself? You have to reset it manually after finding the cause it tripped? ;Bookworm

Yep, My brain quit working on this one, not entirely sure why but that happens sometimes. lol

 

[SuperHaze57]

I guess I’ll jump into the mix here. I’ve been in the electrical field for over 30 yrs. The first 13yrs as an inside journeyman wireman. The last 17 to current as an outside journeymen or what we call an electrical mechanic for a major utility.
This whole debate on GFCI vs. non GFCI is really a matter of personal preference. I can see both sides and each has valid points. It’s no more than a safety device plain and simple. Wheather you choose to use one is a choice you choose to value what is to be protected. Are they fail safe? Do they always work 100% ? The same can be asked about the equipment we use in this hobby.
Over the years I have seen some pretty ugly mishaps especially in the utility end of things. Thankfully no lives were lost but some it’s a wonder how they survived with little or no injury.
I have had several nuisance trips with my small tank and have only lost a few fish on one occasion only because I wasn’t home at the time. The others I caught it. I’m positive my reef equipment had nothing to do with the trips as that circuit isn’t dedicated. I think that’s where a lot of these nuisance trips are caused from something else that’s on that same circuit.
For myself as much as I dislike GFCI’s I’m planning on running 3 to 4 dedicated circuits for my new build. They will be GFCI protected.
As a side note I would never use arc fault on any of my reefing equipment.

 

[vdubreefer]

GFCI’s are only time bombs waiting to happen, with the amount of money you put in your tank it’s not worth it, ever had hundreds of dollars of meat in your outside garage fridge go bad because the GFCI tripped and wasn’t reset ? I have , i have had friends and family who have had it happen too, as stated earlier, GFCI’s are supposed to be checked monthly and replaced as needed, as per the NEC (National Electrical Code) they are required within 6’ of water, my personal opinion don’t set yourself up for failure by using one ! I’ve seen new GFCI’s out of the box hooked up and working tripped for the first time (during a test) and won’t reset , internal failure 1 in 20 or so will do this , now that doesn’t mean they are useful ; kitchen outlets bathroom outlets exterior outlets where GFCI are required install them, but not on an outlet where I’ve got $3-4K worth of livestock or a system I’ve worked so hard to build ? I don’t think i would put one on my system

 

[SuperHaze57]

GFCI’s are only time bombs waiting to happen, with the amount of money you put in your tank it’s not worth it, ever had hundreds of dollars of meat in your outside garage fridge go bad because the GFCI tripped and wasn’t reset ? I have , i have had friends and family who have had it happen too, as stated earlier, GFCI’s are supposed to be checked monthly and replaced as needed, as per the NEC (National Electrical Code) they are required within 6’ of water, my personal opinion don’t set yourself up for failure by using one ! I’ve seen new GFCI’s out of the box hooked up and working tripped for the first time (during a test) and won’t reset , internal failure 1 in 20 or so will do this , now that doesn’t mean they are useful ; kitchen outlets bathroom outlets exterior outlets where GFCI are required install them, but not on an outlet where I’ve got $3-4K worth of livestock or a system I’ve worked so hard to build ? I don’t think i would put one on my system

Freezers and refrigerators should never be put on a GFCI. A dedicated circuit and single receptacle for such appliances.