Are the risks of having a deep sandbed exaggerated?

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So I’m not sure what you are saying here. Is it that the DSB does nothing or only part of it?

I’m not making any claim except that your example does not demonstrate whether your dsb is doing anything. :)

That is often the way in reefing, which is why we debate so many things endlessly.

 

[sgdnycct]

I’m not making any claim except that your example does not demonstrate whether your dsb is doing anything. :)

That is often the way in reefing, which is why we debate so many things endlessly.

This tank I’m using a refugium. My last tank, which I had running for 4+ years had LR+DSB. Refugium is new for me. I do recall with my old tank I’d have some PO spikes, so yeah maybe the DSB is better at NO. And the refugium w macro is better at PO?

I’m not claiming anything. I’m only sharing my experience and the results I’ve been getting. I have no clue really. I’m not a physicist, biologist or chemist. I do have 30+ years experience with my own tanks, maintenance and working at stores in the 90’s ( don’t do the math- I’m old lol). So I’m just going from experience and the success and failures from those experiences.

 

[ygbsmww]

I started keeping a generator, and 10 gas cans, to give me 5 days minimum of power. And over the last few years I’ve been investing in LiFePO4 power stations and have around 6kw of power in battery storage, to use before needing to fire up the generator. Deployable solar panels is the next step in the plan. My batteries will last me several days, and with 2 decent panels, I could recharge to 75% in a day. 3 panels would recharge me to 100% in a day. Theoretically I would be able to run indefinitely, if weather is decent. This has become my other hobby/passion, as a result of my experiences in the past.

SeeDevil question, re: pass through power

SO - if I plug the SeeDevil (2000W) into an outlet, and then my tank equipment into the SeeDevil, let's say 800W of drain, is it supposed to run indefinitely (no pwr outage)? Or with the supplied 10A (I think) charger, will the unit drain to zero?

 

[56longroof]

I cannot answer about all the tanks, but there are 74 pages of discussion by folks dosing ammonia to supply N in the thread below, and I assume they use all sorts of different husbandry techniques:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-ammonia-dosing-for-low-nitrate-systems.987087/

You missed my point. A DSB is a simple solution. Any other method requires more equipment and cost. Not too mention added maintenance. We are all aware of different methods to keep nutrients at acceptable levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You missed my point. A DSB is a simple solution. Any other method requires more equipment and cost. Not too mention added maintenance. We are all aware of different methods to keep nutrients at acceptable levels.

I agree that’s a plus for nitrate export. Still need something for phosphate.

 

[56longroof]

I agree that’s a plus for nitrate export. Still need something for phosphate.

I agree. I use gfo.

 

[areefer01]

I’m not making any claim except that your example does not demonstrate whether your dsb is doing anything. :)

That is often the way in reefing, which is why we debate so many things endlessly.

Very true. However a side effect of these debates, in my opinion, is that some become truth.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Very true. However a side effect of these debates, in my opinion, is that some become truth.

Exactly. That's why I provide alternate interpretations to all sorts of ideas and methods folks use. :)

 

[vlangel]

I agree that’s a plus for nitrate export. Still need something for phosphate.

I have found macroalgae is working pretty well for phosphate export. So perhaps a DSB and macroalgae together (either in a fuge or as part of the overall design of a display as is the case with my tank ) can be very effective as a method of nutrient export. That method with LR is my tank's entire filtration. The simplicity of this is the beauty of it. I will post some pics of my tank to give credibility that it works!

 

[vlangel]

I just took these pics yesterday. This is a 56 gallon tank housing 12 well adjusted fish plus inverts.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have found macroalgae is working pretty well for phosphate export. So perhaps a DSB and macroalgae together (either in a fuge or as part of the overall design of a display as is the case with my tank ) can be very effective as a method of nutrient export. That method with LR is my tank's entire filtration. The simplicity of this is the beauty of it. I will post some pics of my tank to give credibility that it works!

I am a fan of the balanced N and P export of macroalgae. Do you have a reason to think it alone would not keep up with N export?

 

[vlangel]

I am a fan of the balanced N and P export of macroalgae. Do you have a reason to think it alone would not keep up with N export?

Only that when I had SSB or BB I was not getting the same results. They needed 10% water changes weekly to control nutrients. However, this tank is coming on its 9th year and neither the SSB or the BB tanks were that mature. Also this tank needed 10% WCs for years and it's only been in the last 2-3 years that I have been able to almost stop water changes.

So, you make a valid point. Scientifically, I was not comparing apples and apples. As an aquarist I am not nearly as scientific as I am intuitive. However, that is working for me.

And my original intent in starting this thread was not to prove that DSBs are the best method; it was to show folks that perhaps the hype of a DSB poisoning and crashing one's tank was exaggerated. I wasn't even claiming that it doesn't happen but I had my doubts that it is as likely as some folks think. I think this thread supported my thoughts.

 

[Besieged]

My last tank (taken down in early ~2008) had a ~4" sand bed, but we built it on top of a plenum to boot (so about 5" deep total in a 55g wide tank), and we had nothing but problems with it... however that was less the fault of the sand bed, I think, and more from my roommate's lackadaiscal approach to stocking, maintenance and (complete lack of) QT, not to mention that we were trying to keep it Ultra-Low Nutrient (as was the way, back then), which as we've since learned is not, in fact, the way. We had problems galore with dinos and whatnot, despite having started the system with a large bag of GARF Grunge (R.I.P.). The fact that it was started with tap water (before we got our RODI unit a month or two later) probably didn't help.

In this most recent round, I elected to go with a 2" bed, based on other reading and advice, not to mention the sheer fact that my system is only a 50gallon AIO. With a comparatively small display area , I dismissed ~4" sand bed I was originally considering owing to how much space I would lose in the process. This time around, I'm relying on a remote fuge with a decent sized rubble zone in the back - I considered a DSB for it as well, but again I didn't want to lose the room for growing my macros and pod population.

 

[Rach77]

You are correct in this thread is NOT a conclusive proof whether DSBs are safe or not. The parameters of each person's tanks have too many variables to compare apples with apples. This thread is more about generalities. I have just read so many posts about the dangers of DSBs and lately almost never see anything positive about them. I was curious if there were still folks out there like me who used them and was their tank flourishing.

Although technically not deep, I do have a 3"-4" sandbed in a mixed reef 21.4 gallon. Since living in Florida, I use actual ocean water a few times of year when changing water just for the life. My sandbed is full of spaghetti worms, hair worms, ceriths and nassarius, amphipods. I feed heavy. Vacuum the corners sometimes when changing water, otherwise leave it to the life to move the sandbed. I have only ever had a plenum in freshwater setups, where the larger rocks don't fall through the grate. My tank is doing quite well. No problems that I can see from the sand. Recently had some low alkalinity unrelated to sand. Tank going now for 15 months approx. I do have cyano regularly in the sand.

 

[backbayreef]

Funny how I fumbled on this DSB thread. I “accidentally” started another tank (only 25gal) wih no sump yesterday. Almost all my tanks have been BB the last 15 years and I love it, esp for SPS tanks & frag tanks.

This time I wanted to try DSB again for the simplicity of maintenance. This tank will be fishless (just corals & inverts) so my N&P load should be low. I do think that NO3 will be kept low naturally or I’ll have to manually dose Ammonium Chloride. As for PO4, I have been using PhosphateRx but not sure if this will work without a skimmer. I do have a small ATS that I might install but I do need some biological filtration, hence the HOB bio wheel filter from Marineland. However, I might remove it after reading this thread. ;)

Anyway, just a little bored so trying something that I haven’t tried in a long time! Definitely subscribed to learn from everyone’s experience since I’m a DSB noob.

 

[vlangel]

Funny how I fumbled on this DSB thread. I “accidentally” started another tank (only 25gal) wih no sump yesterday. Almost all my tanks have been BB the last 15 years and I love it, esp for SPS tanks & frag tanks.

This time I wanted to try DSB again for the simplicity of maintenance. This tank will be fishless (just corals & inverts) so my N&P load should be low. I do think that NO3 will be kept low naturally or I’ll have to manually dose Ammonium Chloride. As for PO4, I have been using PhosphateRx but not sure if this will work without a skimmer. I do have a small ATS that I might install but I do need some biological filtration, hence the HOB bio wheel filter from Marineland. However, I might remove it after reading this thread. ;)

Anyway, just a little bored so trying something that I haven’t tried in a long time! Definitely subscribed to learn from everyone’s experience since I’m a DSB noob.

I hope that it is a good experience for you!

 

[Esox]

I have never utilized a plenum although I believe that they can be very effective.

They are if you like dinos.

I have one currently in a 29 gallon with a clownfish, a damsel, and an assortment of shrimp and snails. Been running for about a year with 4" of crushed coral. Haven't done a water change in months, feed daily, and there hasn't been any detectable nitrate since the 3rd month.

I did try feeding more, overdid it, and got a heck of a hair algae outbreak late last year. Backed off on the heavy feeding, the algae all but disappeared, and dinos leapt in to fill the gap.

Bubbly sea snot isn't quite the look I was going for. Has me thinking plenums are good for some applications, but probably need a higher bioload or dosing to avoid the total lack of nutrients.

 

[vlangel]

They are if you like dinos.

I have one currently in a 29 gallon with a clownfish, a damsel, and an assortment of shrimp and snails. Been running for about a year with 4" of crushed coral. Haven't done a water change in months, feed daily, and there hasn't been any detectable nitrate since the 3rd month.

I did try feeding more, overdid it, and got a heck of a hair algae outbreak late last year. Backed off on the heavy feeding, the algae all but disappeared, and dinos leapt in to fill the gap.

Bubbly sea snot isn't quite the look I was going for. Has me thinking plenums are good for some applications, but probably need a higher bioload or dosing to avoid the total lack of nutrients.

Good to know. Thanks for sharing.

 

[backbayreef]

I hope that it is a good experience for you!

Thanks - my usual inclination has always been BB and wait it out. However, re-reading this thread changed my mind to do something different. So far, day 2 is looking good — hope this experiment will be successful. ;)