Art Reef Rock and tank issues question

[saltwater newby]

Hello everyone,

I’m curious whether I’m the only one experiencing this or if I might be doing something wrong. I started my tank about three years ago using artificial rock made custom and shipped to me by ART REEF ROCK, and I’ve had a hard time getting the system to fully stabilize. Over the years, I’ve dealt with ongoing issues like elevated nutrients and nuisance algae.

I know there are many variables that can contribute to these problems, but I’m starting to wonder if the type of rock I used could be a factor. Since it’s artificial (dead) rock, it doesn’t seem very porous compared to natural live rock, and I’m questioning whether that’s limiting its biological filtration capacity.

I do have traditional live rock in the sump, and I don’t believe the tank is heavily stocked. I’ll attach a video for reference.

The tank is a reefer peninsula 108 gallons with a roughly 30 gallon sump.

Thanks in advance for any insight or advice

 

[Mac8128]

I have been out of the hobby for quite some time, just starting up a nano tank now. I have always used the general rule of thumb of 1.5 pounds of live rock per gallon. Obviously I can't tell how much live rock you have in the DT, but you stated that you didn't think it was all that porous and with that said, I'm guessing you might need a bunch more rock. Doesn't necessarily need to be live rock, could be something like Marco dry live rock and let it build up a bio load from the already established live rock. Can you guess at how many pounds of rock you have on the system?

I realize its apples to oranges, but I stared my 13.5g Fluval, I'm guessing about 11.5 gallons in actual volume with just about 14 pounds of mixed Marco and TBS live rock. So far its doing great, but it is still very early..............

 

[Mac8128]

By the way, I should probably have said that I started two tanks many years ago. A 75g and a 100g, both with sumps with predominantly dry rock and with probably less than .8 pounds of rock per gallon. I fought nuisance algae in both of them for years. Can't say for certain that it was the quality/quantity of rock that caused the problem, but in both cases, the reef experts in my local club suggested that I significantly add to the rockwork. I did so, plus made a few other changes recommended by those folks and I wound up with two beautiful tanks in the end.

The bad part of this story is that these tanks were spaced apart by a couple of years. I have always thought that I should have learned my lesson after the first one.

 

[saltwater newby]

By the way, I should probably have said that I started two tanks many years ago. A 75g and a 100g, both with sumps with predominantly dry rock and with probably less than .8 pounds of rock per gallon. I fought nuisance algae in both of them for years. Can't say for certain that it was the quality/quantity of rock that caused the problem, but in both cases, the reef experts in my local club suggested that I significantly add to the rockwork. I did so, plus made a few other changes recommended by those folks and I wound up with two beautiful tanks in the end.

The bad part of this story is that these tanks were spaced apart by a couple of years. I have always thought that I should have learned my lesson after the first one.

I have been out of the hobby for quite some time, just starting up a nano tank now. I have always used the general rule of thumb of 1.5 pounds of live rock per gallon. Obviously I can't tell how much live rock you have in the DT, but you stated that you didn't think it was all that porous and with that said, I'm guessing you might need a bunch more rock. Doesn't necessarily need to be live rock, could be something like Marco dry live rock and let it build up a bio load from the already established live rock. Can you guess at how many pounds of rock you have on the system?

I realize its apples to oranges, but I stared my 13.5g Fluval, I'm guessing about 11.5 gallons in actual volume with just about 14 pounds of mixed Marco and TBS live rock. So far its doing great, but it is still very early..............

To be honest, I cannot remember how much rock I got from ART REEF ROCK over all but I do agree with you, I feel as I don’t have enough rock either.
There’s a local company to me that sells live rock that has been cured in the ocean and I’ve though of purchasing some to add in my sump but its pricey. Maybe I’ll go that route , although I know there can also be some other factors at play.
Thanks for you suggestion…

 

[Mac8128]

To be honest, I cannot remember how much rock I got from ART REEF ROCK over all but I do agree with you, I feel as I don’t have enough rock either.
There’s a local company to me that sells live rock that has been cured in the ocean and I’ve though of purchasing some to add in my sump but its pricey. Maybe I’ll go that route , although I know there can also be some other factors at play.
Thanks for you suggestion…

Quick note, on my new build I went with Tampa Bay Saltwater for live rock and understood that the rock and sand would have hitchhikers in/on them. But I figured as since this was a new build and it was going into a brand new setup, I would treat the new tank sort of as a QT tank for the rock and sand. So far I have really lucked out. I found three or four whelks that I removed and then found quite a bunch of beneficial hitchhikers that I am thrilled to have in the tank. It's been about 3 weeks and I haven't seen anything that worries me. Sorry to say, it doesn't sound like you have that luxury.

You are going thru the same thought process that I had to go thru twice years ago. On my first tank, I added Marco dry live rock and it felt like it took forever for the additional rock to get seeded and begin to help stabilize the tank. Plus I followed the other recommendations from club members discussed below. But I did eventually see improvement.

On my second go round, I purchased live rock in two shipments spaced out over a month or so and placed them in a spare 29 gallon tank that I setup as a rock QT tank. Very glad I did as I found a bunch of stuff that I didn't want in my DT. Although the only thing that would have caused me major issues were a couple of large crabs that showed up. I took them out and put them in my refugium. Once I added this new live rock I saw some improvements within 3-weeks to a month.

Trying to remember some of the other advise I took to heart................seem to remember dosing both tanks with copepods and then fed them a couple of times a week with Phytoplankton that one of the club members was cultivating. I kept this up for quite some time. I also cut back on broadcast feeding. I always figured that these tanks were big enough to just put a pinch of food into the tank every day. I changed by starting to turn off my pumps, waited 5 minutes and then fed much more conservatively. In fact I tried to do some spot feeding to cut down on extra food going into the tank.

I wish I could tell you that this is definitely what "fixed" my problem. But I can't, although I will tell you that I am taking these lessons to heart with my new tank.

 

[saltwater newby]

By the way, I should probably have said that I started two tanks many years ago. A 75g and a 100g, both with sumps with predominantly dry rock and with probably less than .8 pounds of rock per gallon. I fought nuisance algae in both of them for years. Can't say for certain that it was the quality/quantity of rock that caused the problem, but in both cases, the reef experts in my local club suggested that I significantly add to the rockwork. I did so, plus made a few other changes recommended by those folks and I wound up with two beautiful tanks in the end.

The bad part of this story is that these tanks were spaced apart by a couple of years. I have always thought that I should have learned my lesson after the first one.

I have been out of the hobby for quite some time, just starting up a nano tank now. I have always used the general rule of thumb of 1.5 pounds of live rock per gallon. Obviously I can't tell how much live rock you have in the DT, but you stated that you didn't think it was all that porous and with that said, I'm guessing you might need a bunch more rock. Doesn't necessarily need to be live rock, could be something like Marco dry live rock and let it build up a bio load from the already established live rock. Can you guess at how many pounds of rock you have on the system?

I realize its apples to oranges, but I stared my 13.5g Fluval, I'm guessing about 11.5 gallons in actual volume with just about 14 pounds of mixed Marco and TBS live rock. So far its doing great, but it is still very early..............

To be honest, I cannot remember how much rock I got from ART REEF ROCK over all but I do agree with you, I feel as I don’t have enough rock either.
There’s a local company to me that sells live rock that has been in the ocean and I’ve though of purchasing some to add in my sump but its pricey. Maybe I’ll go that route , although I know there can also be some other factors at play.
Thanks for you suggestion…

Quick note, on my new build I went with Tampa Bay Saltwater for live rock and understood that the rock and sand would have hitchhikers in/on them. But I figured as since this was a new build and it was going into a brand new setup, I would treat the new tank sort of as a QT tank for the rock and sand. So far I have really lucked out. I found three or four whelks that I removed and then found quite a bunch of beneficial hitchhikers that I am thrilled to have in the tank. It's been about 3 weeks and I haven't seen anything that worries me. Sorry to say, it doesn't sound like you have that luxury.

You are going thru the same thought process that I had to go thru twice years ago. On my first tank, I added Marco dry live rock and it felt like it took forever for the additional rock to get seeded and begin to help stabilize the tank. Plus I followed the other recommendations from club members discussed below. But I did eventually see improvement.

On my second go round, I purchased live rock in two shipments spaced out over a month or so and placed them in a spare 29 gallon tank that I setup as a rock QT tank. Very glad I did as I found a bunch of stuff that I didn't want in my DT. Although the only thing that would have caused me major issues were a couple of large crabs that showed up. I took them out and put them in my refugium. Once I added this new live rock I saw some improvements within 3-weeks to a month.

Trying to remember some of the other advise I took to heart................seem to remember dosing both tanks with copepods and then fed them a couple of times a week with Phytoplankton that one of the club members was cultivating. I kept this up for quite some time. I also cut back on broadcast feeding. I always figured that these tanks were big enough to just put a pinch of food into the tank every day. I changed by starting to turn off my pumps, waited 5 minutes and then fed much more conservatively. In fact I tried to do some spot feeding to cut down on extra food going into the tank.

I wish I could tell you that this is definitely what "fixed" my problem. But I can't, although I will tell you that I am taking these lessons to heart with my new tank.

same company I was referring to, I’m actually in Tampa bay region. I’ll check their prices again and if I can order some of their rubble rock to add in my sump.
Thanks for sharing….

 

[slingfox]

I also started with 100% dry rock and same size tank as you for two years. Lots of ups and downs, including many battles with the uglies. I did a tank reset with 100% ocean live rock. I am 4 months in and the tank is more stable and requires less hands on maintenance than what I faced when running dry rock. I have minor bouts either uglies but everything has been pretty simple to fix vs the weeks and months of scrubbing and manual removal that I had when running 100% Marko dry rock.

 

[saltwater newby]

I also started with 100% dry rock and same size tank as you for two years. Lots of ups and downs, including many battles with the uglies. I did a tank reset with 100% ocean live rock. I am 4 months in and the tank is more stable and requires less hands on maintenance than what I faced when running dry rock. I have minor bouts either uglies but everything has been pretty simple to fix vs the weeks and months of scrubbing and manual removal that I had when running 100% Marko dry rock.

This is definitely not uncharted waters for me with dry rock but it’s gotta be either not enough rock but also I think the lack of porosity has something to do with it.
Thanks for sharing….
And don’t get me wrong, the Rock looks amazing. I am not trying to knock them down either.

 

[slingfox]

This is definitely not uncharted waters for me with dry rock but it’s gotta be either not enough rock but also I think the lack of porosity has something to do with it.
Thanks for sharing….
And don’t get me wrong, the Rock looks amazing. I am not trying to knock them down either.

If you want more surface area for bacteria you can put a bunch of biomedia in the sump which is way more porous than any of the mined dry rock. I have two gallons of Seachem Matrix align with a bunch of ocean livestock scraps in my sump. The issue I have we you that is I may have too much nitrifying bacteria since my nitrates are undetectable if I don’t dose.

 

[rayadog]

Man made rock doesn’t really come under scrutiny… and the easier it is to make the less complex it tends to be. It can be set in sand and mixed with salt crystals to create some holes or porosity. The reality is it is always going to be heavier and hardly porous than ocean rock or coral skeletons.

I’m hating the man made rock I have. It’s heavier and doesn’t want to scape easily. The live rock I have doesn’t seem to grow uglies quite like man made… in the same tank from my experience. As much as a i HATE the crabs you inevitably have to catch from ocean cured rock, the rock is SOOOO much better.

It does look like you don’t have an excess of real estate and surface area for a biological filter within your Display tank.

 

[Mac8128]

To be honest, I love Marco dry live rock. It seems pretty porous and is very easy to arrange. The downside is it's pure white and if you don't have enough active bacteria in the tank, the Marco rock will turn brown quick and gets real ugly. To me, a good mix of a high quality dry rock and live rock is the way to go. My nano is 60% LR and 40% dry rock.

 

[saltwater newby]

If you want more surface area for bacteria you can put a bunch of biomedia in the sump which is way more porous than any of the mined dry rock. I have two gallons of Seachem Matrix align with a bunch of ocean livestock scraps in my sump. The issue I have we you that is I may have too much nitrifying bacteria since my nitrates are undetectable if I don’t dose.

Makes sense… but as long as you’re not dealing with ugly stages you’re good. lol…

 

[saltwater newby]

Man made rock doesn’t really come under scrutiny… and the easier it is to make the less complex it tends to be. It can be set in sand and mixed with salt crystals to create some holes or porosity. The reality is it is always going to be heavier and hardly porous than ocean rock or coral skeletons.

I’m hating the man made rock I have. It’s heavier and doesn’t want to scape easily. The live rock I have doesn’t seem to grow uglies quite like man made… in the same tank from my experience. As much as a i HATE the crabs you inevitably have to catch from ocean cured rock, the rock is SOOOO much better.

It does look like you don’t have an excess of real estate and surface area for a biological filter within your Display tank.

Yeah, you’re right. I spoke with Dan from gulf live rock place and I’m going to be ordering some of their rubble rock to put in my sump. I’m also going to add some bio balls , back in the day I had the marine pure blocks but they tend to disintegrate in the sump if moved around. Any suggestions?

 

[slingfox]

Yeah, you’re right. I spoke with Dan from gulf live rock place and I’m going to be ordering some of their rubble rock to put in my sump. I’m also going to add some bio balls , back in the day I had the marine pure blocks but they tend to disintegrate in the sump if moved around. Any suggestions?

Seachem Matrix. I don’t believe any natural biomedia out there is more porous.

 

[rayadog]

Seachem Matrix. I don’t believe any natural biomedia out there is more porous.

Interesting, never looked at the stuff. Looks like you can treat it just like rubble

 

[Sam7]

To be honest, I love Marco dry live rock. It seems pretty porous and is very easy to arrange. The downside is it's pure white and if you don't have enough active bacteria in the tank, the Marco rock will turn brown quick and gets real ugly. To me, a good mix of a high quality dry rock and live rock is the way to go. My nano is 60% LR and 40% dry rock.

thats just the process the rock has to go through to become what real live rock is. Its a slow process and takes time and patience. The reason went to dry rock was nobody could get real reef rock anymore and so the uglies began. All the countries stopped importing the really good stuff from the early days due to laws and regulations. Now you can get the dead rock they turn into sort of live rock from the gulf. I know some wont like the sort of live rock remark but its not anywhere near as good as we used to get with the figi or tonga live rock.