At this point do I just start over?

[ssunthar]

Hello R2R,

If you check my post history since around mid December I've had a series of crap circumstances lead to a wide scale meltdown of my tank. I have lost all of my coral accept my Torches, Hammer, Frogspawn, a button scoly, and zoanthids.

I have a 75 gallon display with a 20long sump, triton style with a refugium first then a skimmer. I have a carbon reactor that I use only in the case of yellow water and very infrequently run it (changing the carbon when I do so). The tank has been wet since August.

The tank was established with KP Aquatics live rock fresh from the keys shipped in water overnight, I ran the tank without anything in it for about 30 days before adding easy coral like trumpets and birdsnest. The tank ran fine for about three months until I had to remove a fish that caused me to rescape the tank a bit. Since then it's literally been all down hill. Prior to the catching and rehoming of the fish, my SPS was encrusting, I had Acropora shooting off new nubs and I was comfortable enough to pick up some more expensive corals.

I have had some mild ups and downs, but nothing that would lead to a large scale crash based on literally everything that I've read online. My levels never got out of control, the worst thing that happened was a heater breaking and throwing stray current which has since been resolved.

A couple things to note:

• My RODI water is zero TDS, I make all of my saltwater with redsea coral pro salt and mix to 1.026 ppm
• I run a lot of flow in the tank, just a notch below kicking up a sandstorm
• I wear latex gloves whenever putting my hands/arms in the tank
• All tools used in / for tank are cleaned with citric acid after use and are only used in the tank
• I ran a triton test that came back with slightly elevated tin which caused me to do a series of large water changes (Dinos appeared here)
• I have added bottled 'bacteria' to the tank
• I have a diverse and large population of micro/macro fauna (Pods / brittle stars / bristleworms / hermits / snails)

LEVELS (and ranges):

ALK / CA / NO4 tested with Hannah (verified w/ salifert)
MAG: Redsea
SG: Refractometer
PH: Apex Probe
PO4: Hannah and Salifert

ALK: 9.5-10.5 (Normally stays between 10 - 10.5 but it has dipped to 9.5 when I don't catch increased consumption)
CA: 400-450
MAG: 1300-1450
PH: 8.1 - 8.3 swing daily w/ lighting schedule
SG: 1.025-1.026 (crept up to 1.031 or so after an ATO incident but was resolved over 48 hours)
NO4: 2-8
PO4: .03-.04


I honestly feel like I take more care than most of the reefers I know to make sure that the tank is cared for properly, from wearing gloves to making sure that the RODI water is 0TDS. One of my good reef buddies doesn't even have a TDS meter and his tank looks worlds better than mine...

Is it possible that my tank is just doomed to not be successful? I realize that it is 'early' and it's only been up and running for under six months but it seems strange that I went from success to failure so quickly... If I only lost the acropora that'd be one thing but a wide scale meltdown like this feels like there's something I'm missing - do you guys see anything I've left out?

This experience will only make you a stronger reefer... my 2 year old tank is still stabilising and I had at least 2 great nose dives in that period. Keep going...

 

[DC Reefer]

I have experienced a lot of what you are experiencing since starting my first reef tank. Also I think I must be a very slow learner, it took me years and years to finally realize that stability is critical. I would get my tank going good (at least good for me) and then would get lazy on testing and then it would hit the fan again. I would go from one method to the next trying to find the holy grail of reef keeping. Saw the awesome Zeovit tanks and converted 2 tanks to the full zeo method without really understanding it. Decided a while back to put new floors in the whole house so I took down my 2 tanks and did restarts. I took 1 down and moved livestock to the other tank and quarantine tanks while it was down. Once it got going again moved some of the livestock back and a few months later some of the corals and then took the 2nd one down for the restart. I have kept a 65 tall in the basement filled with dry rock and previously used rock cooking for the last 7+ years so I always have a source for "live rock" available which has been very helpful. For me knowing that I am a lazy tester getting automated testing (Tridents + salinity probes) has been key to monitoring my tanks and keeping things stable. I still lose a coral now and again, currently my biggest culprits are a couple of baseball sized turbo snails that bulldoze the tank every once in a while and knock a frag or two off that I can never find again. I guess a long way of saying, keep with it, learn from yours and others mistakes and know we are all pulling for you....

 

[LegendaryCG]

A tank is not nearly stable enough in 6 months. That has been my experience and when I see places like Tidal Gardens waiting a year, it confirms it for me.

Please note the 1:20 Min mark.


It also took me around 12 months before I added Coral. SPS was at about the 14 month mark.

Meh he ran that tank like a fuge has more to do with no cuc and the lights running resulting in that mess.

 

[robbyg]

Meh he ran that tank like a fuge has more to do with no cuc and the lights running resulting in that mess.

Nope it has everything to do with the Phosphates that are leaching out of the dead rocks. Most people do have a huge cleanup crew and they still run into the same problem. The point of the video is that most reefers are so fixated on the NO3 and PO4 levels in the water that they forget about the rocks. This is a perfect example of a mature water system well seeded with all the perfect bacteria and almost no contributing NO3 or PO4 and yet the algae is still growing like mad on the PO4 leaching from the rocks.

And BTW you are wrong about the lights. I tried that trick after my tank crashed. Minimial lighting to save money and keep maintenance to a minimum. Maybe 50 Par at the surface and a small cleanup crew and only a few sparsley fed fished were left under full automation for 2 years. My rocks became covered in coraline Algae and everything looked nice and purple with not a sign of GHA. The moment I tried to restart the Tank for reefing and upped the lights, the GHA took over the place. And this was with near undetectable NO3 and PO4 levels in the water. The PO4 was just locked into the rocks and the GHA was just waiting for some light to get going.

 

[Garf]

Nope it has everything to do with the Phosphates that are leaching out of the dead rocks. Most people do have a huge cleanup crew and they still run into the same problem. The point of the video is that most reefers are so fixated on the NO3 and PO4 levels that they forget the rocks. This is a perfect example of a mature water system well seeded with all the perfect bacteria and almost no contributing NO3 or PO4 and yet the algae is still growing like mad.

Pretty sure in that vid he shows somebody else’s tank with the same rocks (ie same batch bought from tidal) but with a CUC and tangs, and no such algae problems. Gonna have to watch it again now, in case I dreamt it.

 

[ReefBeta]

Nope it has everything to do with the Phosphates that are leaching out of the dead rocks. Most people do have a huge cleanup crew and they still run into the same problem. The point of the video is that most reefers are so fixated on the NO3 and PO4 levels in the water that they forget about the rocks. This is a perfect example of a mature water system well seeded with all the perfect bacteria and almost no contributing NO3 or PO4 and yet the algae is still growing like mad on the PO4 leaching from the rocks.

And BTW you are wrong about the lights. I tried that trick after my tank crashed. Minimial lighting to save money and keep maintenance to a minimum. Maybe 50 Par at the surface and a small cleanup crew and only a few sparsley fed fished were left under full automation for 2 years. My rocks became covered in coraline Algae and everything looked nice and purple with not a sign of GHA. The moment I tried to restart the Tank for reefing and upped the lights, the GHA took over the place. And this was with near undetectable NO3 and PO4 levels in the water. The PO4 was just locked into the rocks and the GHA was just waiting for some light to get going.

I could say you're wrong about the lights too. I tried that trick when I start my 42G tank. I kept the light off for a month, then ran it low for couple months, then gradually acclimate up to 200+ PAR. Not a spot of hair aglae in the tank. There was no tang, just bunch of CUC. That is, if experience from one person is enough the invalidate others. But I don't think that's true, so I won't say you're wrong. That just your anecdote, as equal as mine, even though it showed opposite result.

 

[ReefBeta]

It's funny to see the popular notion now that 1 year is not mature enough for coral, while just several years ago, 2~3 year mark is the start of old tank syndrome. It almost sounds like that the reef tank we're keeping now is from a different planet than the one we kept 10 years ago, where biology and chemistry work differently.

 

[FishTruck]

I agree that starting over is not the right move. Keep looking to find things that could be better, but, don't be too upset if acros just RTN for awhile. You might find the answer, you might not, but one day... one frag will take off if you keep at it.

You don't really know what you are doing in reefing until you experience something like this, figure out what went wrong, and then get past it to accomplish your goals. The guys who have never experienced this and dispensing critical advice should be ignored.

 

[atlantean]

It's funny to see the popular notion now that 1 year is not mature enough for coral, while just several years ago, 2~3 year mark is the start of old tank syndrome. It almost sounds like that the reef tank we're keeping now is from a different planet than the one we kept 10 years ago, where biology and chemistry work differently.

I feel like the move towards more dry rock has really inflated people's rules of thumb. It kind of gets on my nerves when people use the same guidelines when the starting rock is more variable than ever. I'd like to see us be more specific about our definitions of "mature" or ready for a particular type of livestock. There's nuance to everything.

 

[LegendaryCG]

Well thats my 2 month old tank with 95% new rock and sand, 5% was established from previous tanks. There’s 10 acros in there. People keep telling me how it’s going to fail though despite it being the 4th tank I started this way.

 

[Creggers]

Well thats my 2 month old tank with 95% new rock and sand, 5% was established from previous tanks. There’s 10 acros in there. People keep telling me how it’s going to fail though despite it being the 4th tank I started this way.

I started my tank with 60 pounds of live rock shipped in water from the Florida keys and I'm still having these issues. I don't think you can get any more live then the rock I used and I have kept the tank fairly stable yet still have these issues.

I realize you're an experienced reefer but it's posts like this that make newer folks like myself feel like we can have the same success, when I'm proof that it's not the case.

 

[LegendaryCG]

I started my tank with 60 pounds of live rock shipped in water from the Florida keys and I'm still having these issues. I don't think you can get any more live then the rock I used and I have kept the tank fairly stable yet still have these issues.

I realize you're an experienced reefer but it's posts like this that make newer folks like myself feel like we can have the same success, when I'm proof that it's not the case.

I’m NOT recommending anyone follow what I do. I have crashed tanks before, I likely will again. If you copy me you will probably fail, and perhaps I will fail too. All I’m suggesting is simply waiting a long time and thinking that’s the solution to everything might not be true.
I now react quickly to things I see to prevent them from getting out of control. I had a bunch of dinos starting so I turned out my lights right away and started dosing peroxide to deal with it. That’s the kinda of things you need to be ready to handle on a young tank.

 

[robbyg]

Pretty sure in that vid he shows somebody else’s tank with the same rocks (ie same batch bought from tidal) but with a CUC and tangs, and no such algae problems. Gonna have to watch it again now, in case I dreamt it.

Yes and I am pretty sure that rock must have been in addition to rock he already had. It's highly unlikely that you can throw in that many Tangs and other fish into a Tank that is just being established and not run into problems.

 

[robbyg]

It's funny to see the popular notion now that 1 year is not mature enough for coral, while just several years ago, 2~3 year mark is the start of old tank syndrome. It almost sounds like that the reef tank we're keeping now is from a different planet than the one we kept 10 years ago, where biology and chemistry work differently.

I have never heard of 2-3 years being a benchmark for old tank syndrome. I use to hear numbers like 10-15 years on RC. My rocks are now 16 years old and are just fine.

 

[robbyg]

I could say you're wrong about the lights too. I tried that trick when I start my 42G tank. I kept the light off for a month, then ran it low for couple months, then gradually acclimate up to 200+ PAR. Not a spot of hair aglae in the tank. There was no tang, just bunch of CUC. That is, if experience from one person is enough the invalidate others. But I don't think that's true, so I won't say you're wrong. That just your anecdote, as equal as mine, even though it showed opposite result.

If you kept the lights off for a month I assume you had no fish? If that is the case I would not expect that you had any detectable levels of the bad stuff.
On the other hand I had five medium sized fish in the Tank for two years and did zero water changes.

 

[Pistondog]

I was doing monthly 30% water changes but stopped when I noticed my NO4 was dipping.

I haven’t tested for ammonia nor nitrite, I’ll do this tonight to confirm it’s all zeroed out.

Yeah I’m not adding anything till the summer ..


I’m not giving up on reefing, really just frustrated. By and large reading through comments is encouraging.


I’m dosing triton through an auto doser

Triton recommends adjusting the dose, equal for all elements, until the dkh is around 8. This assumes their standard method and not `other methods`.

Perhaps your dkh of 9.5 to 10 is altering their intended results.
Is there a need to be above 8?

 

[robbyg]

Well thats my 2 month old tank with 95% new rock and sand, 5% was established from previous tanks. There’s 10 acros in there. People keep telling me how it’s going to fail though despite it being the 4th tank I started this way.

Where are the fish? I only see one Gramma!
If your fish load is really low you can get away with a lot of things for a lot longer.

 

[LegendaryCG]

Where are the fish? I only see one Gramma!
If your fish load is really low you can get away with a lot of things for a lot longer.

uhm I run a heavy fish load.

2 clowns
1 scopas tang
1 flame back angel
1 Lubbocks wrasse
1 banana wrasse
1 dartfish
1 lawnmower blenny
1 Royal gramma
1 cleaner shrimp
1 urchin
many many snails

 

[Hermie]

Nope it has everything to do with the Phosphates that are leaching out of the dead rocks. Most people do have a huge cleanup crew and they still run into the same problem. The point of the video is that most reefers are so fixated on the NO3 and PO4 levels in the water that they forget about the rocks. This is a perfect example of a mature water system well seeded with all the perfect bacteria and almost no contributing NO3 or PO4 and yet the algae is still growing like mad on the PO4 leaching from the rocks.

And BTW you are wrong about the lights. I tried that trick after my tank crashed. Minimial lighting to save money and keep maintenance to a minimum. Maybe 50 Par at the surface and a small cleanup crew and only a few sparsley fed fished were left under full automation for 2 years. My rocks became covered in coraline Algae and everything looked nice and purple with not a sign of GHA. The moment I tried to restart the Tank for reefing and upped the lights, the GHA took over the place. And this was with near undetectable NO3 and PO4 levels in the water. The PO4 was just locked into the rocks and the GHA was just waiting for some light to get going.

The whole lesson of that video is that there is no clean up crew. Than says it himself.

And rocks don't just "Grow algae" like dirt does. The phosphate has to RELEASE from the rock and into the water column for the algae to use it. Sure there is a water barrier on the surface of the rocks which can account for higher phosphate directly above the rock surface, but if your water flow is good enough, the phosphate will release into the water column and can be exported that way.

 

[Hermie]

I don't get why robby is being so contrarian here