Atlantic Pygmy Octopus

[BubblesandSqueak]

So, I know bigger is better, but....I currently have a 32 gal cube, a Pygmy Octo recommends 30 gal min. I really want a two spot but thats 55 min. exploring tanks, I want 150 for good sized fish in the future. All that is in my cube right now are 2 small clowns, cuc, and coral. So, I'm thinking before I pull the $7k upgrade, for the short life span, should I get a 10gal fugal to relocate everything into it and get a pygmy, then transfer back in a year? what do I need to do to sanitize the tank after the octo if it dies before I get it out? do I need to remove all coral and if not, which ones? currently I have torch, zoa, hammer, acan and BTA that I care about. I know the cuc would be lunch but what about a fromia?

And I have not found this part yet....Should I leave a CUC in there and just keep replacing the "missing" or should I leave it out and feed the Octo every couple days instead?

I also can't seem to find how fast any of them grow during their short lives. When I see the size to select when buying, I'm thinking "smaller" is better to have for longer.

My thoughts are if this is just a bucket list of things to own I can get a pygmy but I would prefer a two spot. And, getting it out of my system, I may not really need to get another tank yet. Though I should've bought larger in the beginning but didn't know if salt water would be challenging. But I need an octopus either way. just not sure about future of things. a smaller tank like 13 gal fluval I'd put in my kids room and easy enough for the short duration. These clowns grew from (well one did) from 1" to 1.5" in 3 months (other seems like 1' still).

And to add, I added a intank screen to the cube along with their media baskets. I have the UV but never hooked up. The skimmer I hooked up but then removed because was more maintenance than should be. like foamed over twice a day but not much food or bioload to need one. I'm assuming though the octopus would need it back on?

Any experienced Octo people out there that can share light if I should get a temporary housing for current inhabitants or just get another tank? It's just I want something else to do with the other tank which is why I would want big.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[blaxsun]

With a lifespan of ~1 year is it even really worth it?

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

With a lifespan of ~1 year is it even really worth it?

I think so. Makes traveling easy. Tank cycles during holiday; then tenant during home stay. So long as you just need to do a water change vs heavy disinfecting of everything etc…

 

[blaxsun]

I think so. Makes traveling easy. Tank cycles during holiday; then tenant during home stay. So long as you just need to do a water change vs heavy disinfecting of everything etc…

They renowned escape artists - so make sure you have a solid lid.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I can't answer all the questions here, but here's what I can offer:

do I need to remove all coral and if not, which ones? currently I have torch, zoa, hammer, acan and BTA that I care about. I know the cuc would be lunch but what about a fromia?

Some people keep their octos with corals, but as a general rule of thumb, if the coral can sting, it's probably a bad choice for an octopus tank (either out of concern that the coral will sting the octopus, or out of concern that the octopus will eat/destroy the coral).

A Fromia starfish would likely be alright with the octopus, but I'd skip it anyway because of its dietary requirements (Fromia starfish are thought to be biofilm eaters; we can't replicate their natural feed at this point, so they seem to starve to death in our tanks - livinlifeinBKK has kept some Fromia stars for a decent length of time by this point, but they mention that it's a fairly intensive care regimen which would be a lot more work with an octopus in the tank, and the diet they use may not work for other species in the genus).

Relevant octopus info:

Most people don't keep them in the same tank because they could both pose a threat to the other, so I only know of a few people who have tried keeping octopus with nems, but, from what I've read, if the nem has a mild sting (for an octopus, not necessarily a human), it can technically be kept with the octopus. That said, the stings from many nems (even some mild nems) can damage the octopus' skin and lead to blisters, scarring, infections, etc.

Anecdotally, I have heard of success with bubble tip anemones and an octopus, but that's about it (and I don't have a lot of info on that setup - the octopus may still have been stung on occasion). The only other nems I've heard of people keeping with their octopus have caused serious problems and greatly shortened the lifespans of the octopuses kept.

Generally, the recommended tank size for one dwarf octopus (the small species that get about the size of a hand) is 30 gallons (or more - larger is better for these guys, with most people who have kept them before recommending more in the range of 50-75 gallons for one). Very few things can be kept with an octopus, as most things either get killed by the octopus or cause major issues for the octopus - it very strongly advised to never put fish in a tank with an octopus (unless the fish is being added specifically for the octopus to hunt).

That said, here are some things that I've heard may be kept successfully:
- pencil urchins
- brittle stars/serpent stars (not the big, green "serpent star" Ophiarachna incrassata - this one is predatory, and not worth the risk with an octopus)
- most starfish (predatory stars that feed on bivalves like clams and mussels seem to be some of the safest; I'd avoid the reef safe ones/biofilm eaters, as we really can't feed them like they need to be fed at this point and they usually just slowly starve to death in our tanks) - I have heard of an instance of Chocolate Chip Sea Stars eating a couple of octopuses (I can't verify the account, but the poster mentioned their friend who watching their tank witnessed it), so I'd personally avoid them too.
- leather corals and most softies, including gorgonians (I'd avoid the highly toxic softies like zoas, palys, and gonis with octos though, and most gorgonians are pretty fragile and should be placed out of an area where the octo is likely to go)
- non-ricordia mushroom corals

And, here's one that could probably be kept successfully that I haven't heard of anyone trying:
- detritus feeding sea cucumbers; this one may or may not work, but given that most other echinoderms can be kept safely, I'd assume these ones would probably be alright too. I would personally avoid the filter feeding sea cucumbers, as they tend to be more toxic and more likely eject their poison into a tank if scared/attacked (and octopuses - being highly intelligent and playful - tend to "attack" things, even when they're just playing with them; I've heard of octopuses throwing hermit crabs across the tank just for fun, and I wouldn't want to risk it with a highly toxic cucumber).

Your tank needs to be escape proof, and should not have any holes in it, as octopuses can fit through any hole they can fit their beak through - and their beaks are typically super tiny compared to the rest of their bodies. The lid on the tank also needs to be held down in some way - I've heard of people using duct tape for this, but some kind of latch/lock system would work too as long as the lid is held firmly in place and isn't able to be pushed up enough for the octopus to escape.

Also, two things to keep in mind with octopuses:
1 ) They typically are very short lived (most dwarf octopuses live for about 6-10 months, with 6-8 being more typical from what I've seen), and if you get an adult, you may only have it for a few weeks before it dies.
2 ) Be wary of which octopus you buy - the dwarf species (such as Octopus mercatoris, O. joubini, etc.) are fine, but others like the Blue-Ringed Octopus (Hapalochlaena spp.) are lethally venomous (i.e. they could literally kill you).

If you have serious questions about keeping octopuses, the site linked below is a great resource, and there are a handful of people either on that site or on here (or both, in some cases) who would likely be able to help answer those questions for you:

https://tonmo.com/articles/octopus-pet-checklist-before-you-get-an-octopus-as-a-pet.3/

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

I can't answer all the questions here, but here's what I can offer:

Some people keep their octos with corals, but as a general rule of thumb, if the coral can sting, it's probably a bad choice for an octopus tank (either out of concern that the coral will sting the octopus, or out of concern that the octopus will eat/destroy the coral).

A Fromia starfish would likely be alright with the octopus, but I'd skip it anyway because of its dietary requirements (Fromia starfish are thought to be biofilm eaters; we can't replicate their natural feed at this point, so they seem to starve to death in our tanks - livinlifeinBKK has kept some Fromia stars for a decent length of time by this point, but they mention that it's a fairly intensive care regimen which would be a lot more work with an octopus in the tank, and the diet they use may not work for other species in the genus).

Relevant octopus info:

thank you for all this great info. it seems I'm stuttering to lean towards a reefer max 425 or 525 and a Arctic 1/10 chiller for octopus only. I was looking at an Innovative Marine EXT 100g but need to piece everything together which I'm not sure of all the parts upfront which is why I like the MAX. (Innovative cabinets look so much nicer) I do like the reefer max 500penn but I don't want a hanging light that comes with the package (at a cost). Would be nice to delete it. I'm considering the Two Spot since they seem to have the longer longevity. looking at sizes closer to 100G so I can use the tank for larger fish later.

But thank you for all the useful info. I've bee reading through the tonmo site. Hard to find specific things on there. Like how fast do particular species grow? I think the reccomended tank size for a two spot was 55g and seems small. Report is 18-24" max. So do they really grow that fast in a tank over 1-2 years? Seems a 55g tank would be too small especially if there's an inking.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I've bee reading through the tonmo site. Hard to find specific things on there. Like how fast do particular species grow? I think the reccomended tank size for a two spot was 55g and seems small. Report is 18-24" max. So do they really grow that fast in a tank over 1-2 years? Seems a 55g tank would be too small especially if there's an inking.

It can be a bit difficult to find the info on the site, and info such as growth rates aren’t generally well tracked regardless (particularly for soft-bodied creatures like octopuses). For growth rate estimates on bimacs/two spots (and a discussion on why estimating an octopus’ growth is challenging), see the link below (figures 6 and 7 are the estimated growth rate charts). That said, yes, as long as the octopus has good water and enough good food, I would plan on them either hitting or coming close to max size within one year (I haven’t looked into whether or not octopuses experience stunted growth in aquaria, but I wouldn’t count on it). 50-55 gallons is the minimum recommended tank size; with octopuses, it’s basically just indicating that that’s the smallest tank size you could make it work it with. Bigger is almost always going to be better for a cephalopod, so going with a tank size closer to 100 gallons is likely a good idea both for water quality purposes and to see healthier behaviors.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262325604_Use_of_Length-Frequency_Analysis_for_Growth_Estimation_of_the_California_Two-Spotted_Octopus_Octopus_bimaculatus_Verril_1883_of_the_Gulf_of_California