kevgib67
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Welcome back Eli, glad you are here!
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We do see signatures of carbon dosing in hobbyist aquariums. A few families that we well known to respond to nutrient dosing from the literature, also are present at high levels in many tanks that carbon dose.
When we look at these tanks at the species level we often find that carbon dosing promotes the growth of specific bacteria associated with the fish gut microbiome. In other words, in a heavily carbon dosed tank the dominant bacteria are often fish poop bacteria. But those are not pathogens, they're normal members of the fish gut community even if they're not normally present at high levels in the water.
We don't generally see increased Vibrionaceae or Rhodobacteraceae in carbon dosed tanks. This may suggest we shouldnt worry too much about carbon dosing in terms of pathogens. On the other hand, we do sometimes see elevated Alteromonadaceae which is a group that includes some pathogens, and a group where standard genetic markers have limited resolution. So I can't rule it out, only say that its not the major effect we find.
In general, carbon dosing appears to heavily alter the community and for that reason I think it should probably be used more cautiously in the hobby than it currently is. It sounds like you're approaching this with the appropriate level of caution.
I especially am not a fan of hidden carbon in many aquarium products that don't list their full ingredients. Its not that I'm saying noone should add any carbon - just that the type and amounts have a very large impact on the bacterial community so my gut feeling is we should probably be as cautious about adding carbon to our tanks as we are when adding any other nutrient.
None of this is intended to say "don't carbon dose the system you mentioned" -- just my thoughts on carbon dosing in general based on what we've seen in these data.
Thank you Dr Eli. I've been wondering and searching for answer about this for a very long time. Even after reading dozens of good stories of vinegar dosing, I still can't help but worried that it might fuel some pathogenic bacteria. Although my vinegar dosing routine won't change, this post really put my mind at ease.We do see signatures of carbon dosing in hobbyist aquariums. A few families that we well known to respond to nutrient dosing from the literature, also are present at high levels in many tanks that carbon dose.
When we look at these tanks at the species level we often find that carbon dosing promotes the growth of specific bacteria associated with the fish gut microbiome. In other words, in a heavily carbon dosed tank the dominant bacteria are often fish poop bacteria. But those are not pathogens, they're normal members of the fish gut community even if they're not normally present at high levels in the water.
We don't generally see increased Vibrionaceae or Rhodobacteraceae in carbon dosed tanks. This may suggest we shouldnt worry too much about carbon dosing in terms of pathogens. On the other hand, we do sometimes see elevated Alteromonadaceae which is a group that includes some pathogens, and a group where standard genetic markers have limited resolution. So I can't rule it out, only say that its not the major effect we find.
In general, carbon dosing appears to heavily alter the community and for that reason I think it should probably be used more cautiously in the hobby than it currently is. It sounds like you're approaching this with the appropriate level of caution.
I especially am not a fan of hidden carbon in many aquarium products that don't list their full ingredients. Its not that I'm saying noone should add any carbon - just that the type and amounts have a very large impact on the bacterial community so my gut feeling is we should probably be as cautious about adding carbon to our tanks as we are when adding any other nutrient.
None of this is intended to say "don't carbon dose the system you mentioned" -- just my thoughts on carbon dosing in general based on what we've seen in these data.
Welcome back Dr.We do see signatures of carbon dosing in hobbyist aquariums. A few families that we well known to respond to nutrient dosing from the literature, also are present at high levels in many tanks that carbon dose.
When we look at these tanks at the species level we often find that carbon dosing promotes the growth of specific bacteria associated with the fish gut microbiome. In other words, in a heavily carbon dosed tank the dominant bacteria are often fish poop bacteria. But those are not pathogens, they're normal members of the fish gut community even if they're not normally present at high levels in the water.
We don't generally see increased Vibrionaceae or Rhodobacteraceae in carbon dosed tanks. This may suggest we shouldnt worry too much about carbon dosing in terms of pathogens. On the other hand, we do sometimes see elevated Alteromonadaceae which is a group that includes some pathogens, and a group where standard genetic markers have limited resolution. So I can't rule it out, only say that its not the major effect we find.
In general, carbon dosing appears to heavily alter the community and for that reason I think it should probably be used more cautiously in the hobby than it currently is. It sounds like you're approaching this with the appropriate level of caution.
I especially am not a fan of hidden carbon in many aquarium products that don't list their full ingredients. Its not that I'm saying noone should add any carbon - just that the type and amounts have a very large impact on the bacterial community so my gut feeling is we should probably be as cautious about adding carbon to our tanks as we are when adding any other nutrient.
None of this is intended to say "don't carbon dose the system you mentioned" -- just my thoughts on carbon dosing in general based on what we've seen in these data.
This is awesome glad to see you back!Hi again Reef2Reef,
I used to post here a lot but have been away from forums for a couple years. I thought I'd re-introduce myself here since the community has probably grown a lot since I was here last.
I'm a professional biologist and recovering academic. I live in Oregon's beautiful Willamette Valley with my wife, 3 kids, a bunch of farm animals, and more reef tanks than I'd care to admit in polite company. (only one display tank in the house, but theres that whole greenhouse I built to house coral tanks too...)
After a couple decades in the research world using DNA sequencing to study corals and a variety of other odd creatures, I started a DNA testing company a few years aiming to bring these same methods to the aquarium hobby. We've been running samples for the reefkeeping community ever since, and this has grown into my full time job and primary source of support.
Over the past 4 years we've gathered lots of data on the microbial community in reef tanks. We've also built a database of eukaryotic parasites including those that cause some of the most common fish diseases. Some of our earliest findings I wrote up on these forums, but as we grew I ran out of time for these writeups. I hope to change that in the near future. A few teasers to share:
- The bacteria associated with the coral disease SCTLD appear to be causing disease in Acropora and other SPS in the hobby, but some of our clients have promising data on a possible treatment
- We're finding Myxozoans, an unexpected group of fish parasites that hadnt previously been discussed much in the hobby - the jury's still out on whether they're causing fish mortality in the hobby, but they're a nasty parasite in fish aquaculture...
- We've come across a variety of other interesting parasites like the Amoeba that cause Amoebic Gill Disease, or the toxic dinoflagellates Pfiesteria
In some ways our findings contradict a theory many had suggested before DNA sequencing was available, that all tanks probably contain parasites like Cryptocaryon (Ich). On the other hand, we find a variety of other, sometimes unexpected parasites. There's a lot more than just Ich out there! (of course, we do find plenty of Cryptocaryon too. Especially since over the past few months we've improved the sensitivity of our tankDNA test; I suspect our estimate of ~10% prevalence will continue to climb).
When I came back to the forums I came across a few pretty negative comments about various aspects of this technology or our service. Its a new technology for reef keeping, and skepticism can be natural and appropriate when something new comes up. I would be happy to answer any questions and attempt to relieve any concerns.
We test reef tank DNA for a living. Ask me anything!
-Eli
After looking at aquarium microbiomes for almost 5 years now, a few themes have become crystal clear.Have you done a thread or compiled data on the most common bacteria your seeing in thriving healthy tanks? Can you stear me in the right direction or share your observations on what you have found?