Balling compared to Triton

[road_runner]

The argument that they should be maintained at that level is a fine one (maybe not perfect, but certainly very good).

The issue is they do not deplete together. So dosing them together if they do not deplete together isn't going to maintain natural levels.

Sorry what I meant here is percentages wise. Not having the same quantity dosed rather percentage between kh and ca were stable. Also when I need alk I needed ca, and when I needed to cut back on alk I needed to cut back on ca..
On redsea I kept dosing alk gor months without needing ca, my ca was always 450 while alk needed lots of foundation b dosing

 

[road_runner]

FWIW, the Red Sea Foundation products are not designed for 1:1 dosing, and all tanks should use a lot more of the alk part than calcium. I have no idea why they would want to design it this way, but they did. :)

Agreed though their marketing message is that you does everything based on foundation a consumption lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry what I meant here is percentages wise. Not having the same quantity dosed rather percentage between kh and ca were stable. Also when I need alk I needed ca, and when I needed to cut back on alk I needed to cut back on ca..
On redsea I kept dosing alk gor months without needing ca, my ca was always 450 while alk needed lots of foundation b dosing

I was responding to nanomanias statment about NSW ratios and dosing. :)

FWIW, I do not know why you observed what you did, but in general, corals cannot take up alkalinity and not calcium. There are some processes that use alkalinity that perhaps you have, such as a sulfur denitrator, or perhaps it is the effect of alk always depleting faster on a percentage basis than calcium, perhaps coupled with a high calcium mix.

For many people, a 0.5 dKH alk drop is significant and they would dose, while the expected 3.2-3.5 ppm drop in calcium is lost in the noise of testing and water changes.

This has more:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Agreed though their marketing message is that you does everything based on foundation a consumption lol

Yes, and that makes no sense to me if it gets applied to a wide range of reef tank types.

 

[road_runner]

...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeh I do not know why. With zeovit, redsea foundation b did somehow buffered my ca, my ca aleaues 450 no matter what I do without getting down and alk needed alot of dosing. Once I switched to b ionic I started having demand for ca dosing and my growth was so significant...
Something between zeo system and redsea did not match..

ESV B-ionic is certainly a good product. :)

 

[road_runner]

randy sir, bit of sidebar since you are a chemist. I have BK mini 200 skimmer. and have struggled with the fact that the foam production in the skimmer is not thick and I do not get great skimmate.
when I contact BK they claim that water chemistry is what to blame and that there is something in my water chemistry that is holding the skimmer from producing thick foam. They asked if I run GFO which I do not BTW.
my question is: is there such a thing that water chemistry to impact skimmer performance?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

randy sir, bit of sidebar since you are a chemist. I have BK mini 200 skimmer. and have struggled with the fact that the foam production in the skimmer is not thick and I do not get great skimmate.
when I contact BK they claim that water chemistry is what to blame and that there is something in my water chemistry that is holding the skimmer from producing thick foam. They asked if I run GFO which I do not BTW.
my question is: is there such a thing that water chemistry to impact skimmer performance?

It's not typically considered a chemistry issue, but the things that cause bubble popping/foam collapse are oil droplets and hydrophobic particulates:

What is Skimming? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

Bubble Popping

Other critical things can occur at the foam draining stage, and they usually impact skimming negatively. One is the addition of materials that cause bubbles to pop prematurely. Excessive oils, for example, cause this to happen.

When typical oil droplets are added to a reef aquarium, they quickly arrive at the skimmer. A pure oil droplet is largely hydrophobic on all sides. Oil drops work their devilish tricks in skimmers by spanning across the water between two air bubbles in a foam (Figure 4). Once an oil droplet spans the water gap between bubbles, the amphipathic molecules on both of the bubbles' surfaces spread along the interface between the oil and the water (if they were not there already) and connect both of the air gaps with a continuous line of amphipathic molecules along this oil/water interface. Once these amphipathic molecules are in place, the interaction is unstable. The surface tension pulls at the oil drop (Figure 5), and it simply comes apart. The bubble ruptures from the site of the oil drop, and the effect is that the bubbles combine, or pop entirely. The reason that this does not happen in the absence of an oil drop is that to cause a rupture requires the water present between the air bubbles (or between a single bubble and the nearby atmosphere) to become exposed as fresh air/water interface. In fact, it requires a continuous line of water molecules to become exposed all at once.

Because such a rupture would require a large number of hydrogen bonds to be broken simultaneously, it simply requires too much energy to actually take place. When the oil drop is there, the water molecules are no longer exposed, but rather the oil or amphipathic molecules, which are much "happier" to be exposed to air, and the droplet ruptures, breaking the bubbles on either side of it into one larger bubble. That process continues until no foam remains.

Bubble popping can also be caused by hydrophobic solids, although that process is likely less important to aquarists than is popping due to oils.

Bubble Popping in Marine Aquaria

The effects of this bubble popping process, if not the mechanistic details, are easily observed in an aquarium, where many things may cause a bubble popping effect. One cause that most aquarists encounter is oil from their hands. After reaching into a saltwater aquarium, skimming action often comes nearly to a halt as bubble popping dominates foam drainage and collection. The popping will proceed until the oil is somehow removed. Among other ways, oil can be removed by splattering it above the foam height in the skimmer, being foamed out bit by bit, being emulsified into the general foam as very, very tiny droplets which no longer span air bubbles, becoming attached to solid objects and removed, being consumed by tank microorganisms and by eventually dissolving into the bulk tank water. Many foods used by aquarists have a similar effect on skimmer bubbles.

As an aside, the bubble popping action of hydrophobic oils is exactly how most anti-gas medications for humans function. Simethicone is really polydimethylsiloxane, which is a hydrophobic polymer liquid. It pops bubbles in your stomach or intestine, and permits the gas to be eliminated. Antifoaming agents also are the basis for a large number of industrial products that work on the same principle. Other things also cause bubble popping. One of these is the fatty acid supplement Selcon. It causes bubble popping in the same fashion as skin oil droplets. Hydrophobic solid objects can also cause popping. Fine particles of activated carbon, sand, inorganic precipitates, or granular ferric oxide/hydroxide, once coated by organic compounds, can serve to break foams in a manner analogous to the described for liquid oils.

 

[road_runner]

It's not typically considered a chemistry issue, but the things that cause bubble popping/foam collapse are oil droplets and hydrophobic particulates:

What is Skimming? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

Bubble Popping

Other critical things can occur at the foam draining stage, and they usually impact skimming negatively. One is the addition of materials that cause bubbles to pop prematurely. Excessive oils, for example, cause this to happen.

When typical oil droplets are added to a reef aquarium, they quickly arrive at the skimmer. A pure oil droplet is largely hydrophobic on all sides. Oil drops work their devilish tricks in skimmers by spanning across the water between two air bubbles in a foam (Figure 4). Once an oil droplet spans the water gap between bubbles, the amphipathic molecules on both of the bubbles' surfaces spread along the interface between the oil and the water (if they were not there already) and connect both of the air gaps with a continuous line of amphipathic molecules along this oil/water interface. Once these amphipathic molecules are in place, the interaction is unstable. The surface tension pulls at the oil drop (Figure 5), and it simply comes apart. The bubble ruptures from the site of the oil drop, and the effect is that the bubbles combine, or pop entirely. The reason that this does not happen in the absence of an oil drop is that to cause a rupture requires the water present between the air bubbles (or between a single bubble and the nearby atmosphere) to become exposed as fresh air/water interface. In fact, it requires a continuous line of water molecules to become exposed all at once.

Because such a rupture would require a large number of hydrogen bonds to be broken simultaneously, it simply requires too much energy to actually take place. When the oil drop is there, the water molecules are no longer exposed, but rather the oil or amphipathic molecules, which are much "happier" to be exposed to air, and the droplet ruptures, breaking the bubbles on either side of it into one larger bubble. That process continues until no foam remains.

Bubble popping can also be caused by hydrophobic solids, although that process is likely less important to aquarists than is popping due to oils.

Bubble Popping in Marine Aquaria

The effects of this bubble popping process, if not the mechanistic details, are easily observed in an aquarium, where many things may cause a bubble popping effect. One cause that most aquarists encounter is oil from their hands. After reaching into a saltwater aquarium, skimming action often comes nearly to a halt as bubble popping dominates foam drainage and collection. The popping will proceed until the oil is somehow removed. Among other ways, oil can be removed by splattering it above the foam height in the skimmer, being foamed out bit by bit, being emulsified into the general foam as very, very tiny droplets which no longer span air bubbles, becoming attached to solid objects and removed, being consumed by tank microorganisms and by eventually dissolving into the bulk tank water. Many foods used by aquarists have a similar effect on skimmer bubbles.

As an aside, the bubble popping action of hydrophobic oils is exactly how most anti-gas medications for humans function. Simethicone is really polydimethylsiloxane, which is a hydrophobic polymer liquid. It pops bubbles in your stomach or intestine, and permits the gas to be eliminated. Antifoaming agents also are the basis for a large number of industrial products that work on the same principle. Other things also cause bubble popping. One of these is the fatty acid supplement Selcon. It causes bubble popping in the same fashion as skin oil droplets. Hydrophobic solid objects can also cause popping. Fine particles of activated carbon, sand, inorganic precipitates, or granular ferric oxide/hydroxide, once coated by organic compounds, can serve to break foams in a manner analogous to the described for liquid oils.

wow incredible read thank you so much. any correlation you have seen when it comes to zeovit system, I know this skimmer perform great so am guessing maybe something in the zeovit additives that is making it not happy:)) multiple zeo users have reported similar feedback that the BK mini is not very good with Zeovit,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

wow incredible read thank you so much. any correlation you have seen when it comes to zeovit system, I know this skimmer perform great so am guessing maybe something in the zeovit additives that is making it not happy:)) multiple zeo users have reported similar feedback that the BK mini is not very good with Zeovit,

Thanks. :)

No, that skimmer's performance is not something I know anything about.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

SEE THE LIST BELOW FOR THE MAKE UP OF THE OCEAN:

Chloride- 55.03%

Sodium- 30.59%

Sulfate- 7.68%

Magnesium- 3.68%

Calcium- 1.18%

Potassium- 1.11%

Bicarbonate- 0.42%

Bromide- 0.19%

Borate- 0.08%

Strontium- 0.04%

Fluoride- 0.003%

Other- less than 0.001%

- By Carl Strohmeyer.

Shouldnt these be maintained like cal/mag/alk?

Other then the less than 0.001%

interesting

 

[rosshamsandwich]

just wanted to share some experience I have from using Redsea foundation elements with zeovit.
In the past my tanks (used to have 2 systems) where both on redsea programs (NOPOX, foundation and color).
so when I started my new system 2 years ago using zeovit, I kept using redsea foundations (alk,cal and mag).

for more than a year I have always felt that my Alk/CAL consumption did not make sense. I have 180G system packed full of SPS. been on zeovit for 2 years (started fresh with zeovit). colors were awesome but growth was not there.

One strange phenomena I had was: my tank rarely consume Cal, it only consume Alk. the tank required quite a lot of foundation B (alk) daily addition, but zero cal addition which meant zero foundation A need. always my cal value hover around 450-460(regardless of the system condition of PO4/NO3..etc).
first I thought it was due to my weekly water changes (cal from the WC was enough) but with experiments I ruled that out.

I always felt the redsea foundation B(alk) was adding something more than only alk that was either prohibiting my coral calcification (growth) or maybe even have some cal content in it that I never needed to add foundation A (cal) to the system.

then I someone recommended me to switch to B-Ionic and give it a try claiming that B-Ionic is more balanced.

so I stopped dosing redsea foundation and switched to B-Ionic. within one week I started seeing demand by my tank for Cal addition as my Cal started dropping below 450. then over 2 months my tank demand for both alk and cal start getting similar, meaning if I need to dose 40ml alk, I will need 40ml cal as well. finally my coral growth have exploded compared to the past, in one month I had more growth on my monti's, red planet, torts and millies than I have had over the last 6 months.

for some reason, redsea foundation was not doing it for me when I used it with zeo system. when I used redsea program these elements were perfect and no issues, but in conjunction with zeovit something was not right.
I think somwhow the red sea foundation B was buffering my alk and Cal at the same time in such a way that my coral did not consume cal...
I do not know why, I only know the results that I saw.

not sure what to make of this but wanted to share with you all.

thank you for sharing