Banggai Cardinal breathing heavy and lying on its side

[waitwut]

I have a Banggai Cardinal that has been in quarantine for just over 4 weeks at this stage. I have not been treating for anything in that time, just observing. Has appeared healthy the whole time and was eating actively yesterday but this morning it wasn't eating at all and its breathing was labored, so I turned on an air stone to make sure the water is oxygenated before I left for work.

By the time I came home it was breathing very heavily so I started preparing a 50% water change - an hour later and it's lying on its side on the bottom, still breathing heavily and occasionally getting up and swimming a little.

I see no visible signs of velvet or ich - the fish looks perfectly healthy to me on the outside, it's not at all thin, fins are all intact and healthy looking. The other fish in the QT (a Royal Gramma) appears to be fine.

Obviously it's very unlikely that I can save it at this point but I have a few treatment options available and I'm wondering if it's worth giving any of them a shot. Options that I have access to:
- Freshwater dip
- Kanaplex
- Formalin
- Prazipro
- Cupramine
- eSHa Trimarin
- eSHa EXIT

(eSHa is a German brand of fish medications that I'm not sure I trust but they were cheap so I figured they were worth having on hand).

Are any of these worth a shot?

If it's not worth trying, I don't have access to clove oil so is there another way to euthanise this poor fish?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have a Banggai Cardinal that has been in quarantine for just over 4 weeks at this stage. I have not been treating for anything in that time, just observing. Has appeared healthy the whole time and was eating actively yesterday but this morning it wasn't eating at all and its breathing was labored, so I turned on an air stone to make sure the water is oxygenated before I left for work.

By the time I came home it was breathing very heavily so I started preparing a 50% water change - an hour later and it's lying on its side on the bottom, still breathing heavily and occasionally getting up and swimming a little.

I see no visible signs of velvet or ich - the fish looks perfectly healthy to me on the outside, it's not at all thin, fins are all intact and healthy looking. The other fish in the QT (a Royal Gramma) appears to be fine.

Obviously it's very unlikely that I can save it at this point but I have a few treatment options available and I'm wondering if it's worth giving any of them a shot. Options that I have access to:
- Freshwater dip
- Kanaplex
- Formalin
- Prazipro
- Cupramine
- eSHa Trimarin
- eSHa EXIT

(eSHa is a German brand of fish medications that I'm not sure I trust but they were cheap so I figured they were worth having on hand).

Are any of these worth a shot?

If it's not worth trying, I don't have access to clove oil so is there another way to euthanise this poor fish?

Many of these cardinals have been displaying this behavior and may be associated with shipping stress or method of capture. In many cases, they end up moribund and it will be helpful if you can attach a video of at least 20 second or pics using white light intensity to clearly see what you are describing.

 

[waitwut]

Here's two videos - as I went to film it suddenly went wild and began swimming around and being tossed by the flow. Apologies for the bubbles - I turned the airstones off just before I began filming. You can see this burst of energy didn't last long.

The second video shows the way it's mostly been behaving the last few hours. Could this be a swim bladder issue? It really seems to be having issues with orientation/buoyancy.

 

[waitwut]

Oh, and for what it's worth - this is (supposedly) captive bred, not wild caught.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Oh, and for what it's worth - this is (supposedly) captive bred, not wild caught.

Captive bred often makes a difference However and unfortunately, Ive seen Bangaiis in this condition and it is indeed Moribund and will likely not eat or swim normal at this point. Adding an air stone is a great measure but may or may not help. There is nothing that can recommended to perk this fish up from its current state

 

[waitwut]

Thanks for the response. It appears to have stopped breathing now, I didn't think there was much chance at this point anyway.

I'll go ahead with the 50% WC - should I be concerned about parasites or bacteria infecting the Royal Gramma in the same QT or is this more likely something specific to Cardinals / related to the way this fish was handled? I can treat prophylactically if it's going to be worthwhile but I wouldn't know what to treat with.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the response. It appears to have stopped breathing now, I didn't think there was much chance at this point anyway.

I'll go ahead with the 50% WC - should I be concerned about parasites or bacteria infecting the Royal Gramma in the same QT or is this more likely something specific to Cardinals / related to the way this fish was handled? I can treat prophylactically if it's going to be worthwhile but I wouldn't know what to treat with.

Sorry, there wasn’t much you could have done when it reached that state.

What is the ammonia level in the tank?

Holding fish like this in isolation, without a proactive quarantine process is always a mistake. You have to then chase after any diseases that show up as opposed to preventing them.

Jay

 

[waitwut]

Undetectable ammonia on both a Red Sea test kit and a Seachem badge. This is a stable 32gal tank, they aren't in a stressful environment. I seeded it with plastic bio-balls from my main DT and ghost fed it for a few weeks before I added any fish. It has full filtration - floss, carbon, purigen, UV and a chaeto reactor. It's really just an observation tank before I add anything to my main DT - though everything is set up to be easily sterilized (plastic plants with marbles as substrate to provide surface area for bacteria).

So far I haven't been convinced that there's enough disease in the supply chain here (I'm in Germany) - particularly when ordering captive bred fish - to be following the heavy proactive treatment regimens recommended on this forum. I've stuck with long observation periods and freshwater dips if I suspect issues.

@Jay Hemdal Do you think that this was likely parasite related (i.e. would have been prevented by the copper / prazipro regimen you recommend)? Most importantly - should I be treating the surviving Gamma now?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Undetectable ammonia on both a Red Sea test kit and a Seachem badge. This is a stable 32gal tank, they aren't in a stressful environment. I seeded it with plastic bio-balls from my main DT and ghost fed it for a few weeks before I added any fish. It has full filtration - floss, carbon, purigen, UV and a chaeto reactor. It's really just an observation tank before I add anything to my main DT - though everything is set up to be easily sterilized (plastic plants with marbles as substrate to provide surface area for bacteria).

So far I haven't been convinced that there's enough disease in the supply chain here (I'm in Germany) - particularly when ordering captive bred fish - to be following the heavy proactive treatment regimens recommended on this forum. I've stuck with long observation periods and freshwater dips if I suspect issues.

@Jay Hemdal Do you think that this was likely parasite related (i.e. would have been prevented by the copper / prazipro regimen you recommend)? Most importantly - should I be treating the surviving Gamma now?

I can’t rule out the viral problem in this case - the symptoms match pretty closely. If it is the virus, the gramma is safe from it.

The big issue with Banggai here in the US is due to the iridovirus they began developing about a decade ago. Domestic captive raised, never mixed with wild caught are pretty safe. Asian captive raised is often mixed in with wild fish in the supply chain so they often develop this issue.

Jay