Bean animal issue

[ReefReady9]

When the return starts back up, the overflow will fill all the way up to the emergency and stay there. Air is getting trapped in the siphon line and it won't create a siphon until I let it out. Luckily the u fighting has a screw in it that I can open to let the air out but it's a manual process right now. How can I fix this?

 

[saltyhog]

How far under the water is the end of the full siphon (it should be 1" or less). Are there any elbows in the siphon plumbing? Any horizontal runs in the siphon plumbing?

One way to clear the air that's a little easier is to close the gate valve a couple of turns and then open it back up in a few seconds after the air is purged.

Edit...what fitting has a screw in it...and why?

 

[JoshH]

Pictures of your plumbing would be a huge help in figuring things out, while your drains can go deeper than one inch into your sump the deeper you go the more back pressure there is and eventually it will prevent air from escaping. This is why lots of returns into sumps have slots cut in the sides of them when they go deep under the water line, it let's the air out but give the benefit of a quieter setup.

 

[ReefReady9]

The screw is plastic and it's in a u pvc fitting. The siphon goes about 1.5" into the sump. I'll try shortening it more.

 

[User1]

I can't really make heads or tails out of it due to the lay out of the pictures. However, if you are saying the emergency is taking on the water and the overflow box is filling up then that is usually because you don't have the gate or ball valve on the primary return adjust properly. It looked like you had the returns properly set in the sump but at this point you need to set the check/guest valve properly, gate/ball vales proper, and make sure that your primary is used.

 

[Blitzie]

In looking at you pictures it looks like you are leaving the overflow and then go vertical to a 90 then horizontal for a pretty long distance in relation to the drop in height.
If cutting the the amount of pipe below the waterline dose not work then I suggest replumbing
When leaving the overflow put a 45 then another 45 near the sump to keep the runs more vertical.

 

[OMGitsManBearPig]

its pretty clear in the pictures that the pipe is already as short as you'd ever want it.
I agree that the pics seem to indicate a rather long horizontal run... it may be enough to pressurize the line enough that its acting just like a drain that is plumbed too deep.

I concur that the 90 degree elbows should not be there. It's the only thing that makes sense in that both the full siphon and the open drain are not flowing.
Is the open drain air vent going underwater? If so, don't do that.

Is everything working properly with you vent the siphon manually? You said it works - but is it working well?

finally, is the emergency drain going siphon to keep up when you don't vent it? Or, is the emergency drain keeping up with the flow and still sucking in air?

 

[ReefReady9]

its pretty clear in the pictures that the pipe is already as short as you'd ever want it.
I agree that the pics seem to indicate a rather long horizontal run... it may be enough to pressurize the line enough that its acting just like a drain that is plumbed too deep.

I concur that the 90 degree elbows should not be there. It's the only thing that makes sense in that both the full siphon and the open drain are not flowing.
Is the open drain air vent going underwater? If so, don't do that.

Is everything working properly with you vent the siphon manually? You said it works - but is it working well?

finally, is the emergency drain going siphon to keep up when you don't vent it? Or, is the emergency drain keeping up with the flow and still sucking in air?

It functions correctly once it's vented. The gate valve is about 1/4 open and the return is on max (1500gph)

 

[OMGitsManBearPig]

Ok good to know. I guess I should have been more detailed in my question. I take working correctly to mean you have a full siphon (non bubbles and lots of flow) and you are able to get the open drain to start and stop bubbling by modulating the gate on the full siphon. If so - good!

assuming all that:
hmm... so the full siphon and open line are not flowing enough (or at all) to handle load but the emergency is? Looks like all 3 have the same diameter pipe... does the emergency have the shortest horizontal run?

I'm asking these questions because I'm surprised that it's working on the emergency (another open drain with a long horizontal run) if both the siphon and open drains are not working...

 

[Blitzie]

Is the emergency the one where you simply have an open top and at the waterline in the sump it is above it?
If so the air that is trapped has a place to go and that is why the flow starts.
The others don't start because there is not enough positive pressure. This and it is why i suggested re-plumbing it to be more vertical.

Think of it like holding a paper cup upside down and then submerging it the air will be trapped in the cup because it has no place to go. That is what it happening when your primary is not starting. what should normally overcome this is the pressure of the water behind that and it is why someone suggested to cut the amount below the waterline to a minimum (I run about 1/2" below the surface and I have the tip cut at a 45° angle as well). What also doesn't help is the the long horizontal run as it reduces the positive pressure.

 

[Blitzie]

Look here also
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/why-can’t-i-get-my-bean-animal-to-siphon.346285/

 

[ReefReady9]

Ok good to know. I guess I should have been more detailed in my question. I take working correctly to mean you have a full siphon (non bubbles and lots of flow) and you are able to get the open drain to start and stop bubbling by modulating the gate on the full siphon. If so - good!

assuming all that:
hmm... so the full siphon and open line are not flowing enough (or at all) to handle load but the emergency is? Looks like all 3 have the same diameter pipe... does the emergency have the shortest horizontal run?

I'm asking these questions because I'm surprised that it's working on the emergency (another open drain with a long horizontal run) if both the siphon and open drains are not working...

The problem is that air gets trapped in the siphon's u fitting. Once that's vented it works fine. The open line has the shortest horizontal run.

 

[OMGitsManBearPig]

heh.

This is all correct. I really forgot that the emergency was above the water line this morning. Of course that's why it's handling the load: there's no pressure.

My vote is the long horizontal run.

 

[Engloid]

You don't have to have it dead vertical, but if you're going to have any horizontals, you need to give them all the slope you can so air can get up and out. You're better off, as stated, to use 45's because air will go up pretty easily.

 

[Engloid]

HOWEVER.... keep in mind that the only part of the siphon line that has to be free of all air is the part ABOVE the valve. The end does NOT have to be under water surface (but is quieter that way), and it doesn't matter how deep it is below the surface. Just imagine siphoning gas from your car into a gas can. It doesn't matter if you put the end of the hose below the gas level in the can, or how deep into the gas level. It will siphon as long as the line is free of air and the source is higher than the destination.


I suspect the root cause of your problem is the plumbing inside the overflow box. Can you post more pictures of that?

Your overflow box should operate like mine in this video. The middle pipe is my emergency drain. siphon is on the right and secondary is on the right. They all drain into a 1.5" header that drains to my basement. That header is NOT completely full of water.

 

[ReefReady9]

HOWEVER.... keep in mind that the only part of the siphon line that has to be free of all air is the part ABOVE the valve. The end does NOT have to be under water surface (but is quieter that way), and it doesn't matter how deep it is below the surface. Just imagine siphoning gas from your car into a gas can. It doesn't matter if you put the end of the hose below the gas level in the can, or how deep into the gas level. It will siphon as long as the line is free of air and the source is higher than the destination.


I suspect the root cause of your problem is the plumbing inside the overflow box. Can you post more pictures of that?

Your overflow box should operate like mine in this video. The middle pipe is my emergency drain. siphon is on the right and secondary is on the right. They all drain into a 1.5" header that drains to my basement. That header is NOT completely full of water.

I see you have something covering the siphon line. Is that so a whirlpool doesn't form? I get one if I remove the PVC fitting.

 

[Engloid]

If this is your siphon line, pull the fitting out of it and leave it. Test operation then. IF it's quiet, just leave it alone. If it's not, you can try drilling a hole in it. If you notice on my video, both my siphon and secondary have holes drilled in the top of them. What this allows is as water level in the box rises, it hits the open end of the U pipe, and seals air from escaping there. As water level continues to rise, air comes out the hole. This style overflow will essentially work the same if you completely removed the U pipe in the siphon line....but it will be noisy. The U pipe just makes it quieter.

 

[Engloid]

Here is the hole in the top of mine. It's about 1/4" diameter. Both the siphon and secondary have the hole in them. Without a hole, it will do exactly as you're describing. I should have caught that detail before now, but I guess it slipped past me when looking over the post. Forgot to post the pic of mine. It's in the next post below.

 

[Engloid]

 

[ReefReady9]

Here is the hole in the top of mine. It's about 1/4" diameter. Both the siphon and secondary have the hole in them. Without a hole, it will do exactly as you're describing. I should have caught that detail before now, but I guess it slipped past me when looking over the post. Forgot to post the pic of mine. It's in the next post below.

Is that a u pvc pipe with a 1/4" hole drilled into it?