Beneficial Bacteria in the Water Column?

[schooncw]

I am trying to explain to someone that there is very little beneficial bacteria in the water column and using old tank water will not assist the cycling process to any significant degree-rather unsuccessfully. Does anyone have any decent explanation, links that would explain this? This article does not exist anymore https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
Thanks.

 

[Jekyl]

No one sells used water. Simple as that.

 

[schooncw]

No one sells used water. Simple as that.

Thank you for your reply but with due respect, I don't think the answer will satisfy or prove my point.

 

[Ranjib]

What kind of explanation you are looking for ? Microbial population plays a vital role that’s known by experience and academic research (search of meta genomics and salt water aquarium). For cycling specifically , there are bottled bacteria from reputable brands so I’ll expect those products to have some background information . Start from there …

 

[Dan_P]

I am trying to explain to someone that there is very little beneficial bacteria in the water column and using old tank water will not assist the cycling process to any significant degree-rather unsuccessfully. Does anyone have any decent explanation, links that would explain this? This article does not exist anymore https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature
Thanks.

What exactly do you mean by beneficial bacteria?

 

[brandon429]

Here’s a tank being cycled in twenty days by adding only reef water. reef water 100% has cycling bacteria available for use and transfer, the old adage is wrong.

reef water has millions of transferable cells of bacteria that will certainly cycle.

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...

www.reef2reef.com

We are trained to buy bacteria from a bottle by being told incorrectly that cycles stall, or cant come free of charge by simple wait times, or by using simply old tank water.


the next time a MACNA speaker talks about cycling they need to address:

-NeonRabbits findings that a free cycle happens in a mere 30 days wait, like a cycling chart says, no feed or bottle bac required and why testing cycle rules on seneye isn’t like testing on red sea or api

-how reef water carries lots of cycling bacteria in every tank

-how seneye testing allowed the masses to find their own truths completely opposite from former cycling training, pre seneye

- how nitrite does not stall any reef cycle and never has

-how no cycles have stalled, stalled cycle posts are all misreading color compare tests. Cycles complete based on a predetermined date relative to the boosters we choose to use and if no boosters are used, they still complete on a time scale already known (this reliability allows MACNA conventions to start on time with rows of ready reefs)
Inputting dead bottle bac isn’t a stall, it’s an unassisted cycle timeline that still cycles fully in a month or so

-they need to discuss how live rock transfers are complete instant skip cycles, every time, without variation (it’s how these conventions are made)

inputting live bottle bac gets you instant ammonia control such that fish-in cycles aren’t harming fish, they’re just breaking disease protocols<- I saw Jon M’s seneye posts measuring Dr Tims as a recent example

the speaker needs to discuss why sellers at marine aquarium conventions dont have to adhere to rules they give buyers out in the field, regarding timely reef tank starts vs the risks of ‘stalls’

am pouncing the establishment not the op ~ all printed material for cycling says opposite of my claims

takeaways reefcentral can benefit from: don’t make mods the regulators of findings and information, you’ll stifle your board to the point frozen molasses runs faster.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Biological Filtration: How to Grow Beneficial Bacteria for a Thriving Ecosystem in your Aquarium

I am sure most of you are familiar with cycling an aquarium. If not, check out this video. Cycling your aquarium is so crucial because it allows time for beneficial bacteria to grow in your aquarium and establish your biological filtration. In this video, we are going to discuss biological...

www.marinedepot.com

Berlin method of filtration - Aquarium Advice

Any article on the internet will explain what you are looking for.

 

[Paul B]

Bacteria has mass and it does not swim. If the water is stagnant, it sinks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As Dan was alluding to, there are many types of bacteria that may be considered beneficial and many will be in the water, not just on surfaces.

Used tank water is likely not useless since it will add bacteria that have many benefits, but it does not cause instant cycling since those bacteria will take substantial time to increase in numbers needed.

As to the article you were looking for, I doubt it answers the question, but it is easy to find old articles when you have a link. Use the internet archive:

Feature Article: Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration

What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...

web.archive.org

But it is also still live here:

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration

What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...

reefs.com

 

[KStatefan]

Aren't the majority of the Ammonia-oxidizing Archaea in the water column?

 

[brandon429]

The Dr Tims video that nearly everyone gets cycle training from said reef tank water doesn’t have nitrifiers. I’ve always taken that to mean certain species aren’t found in water, but many stand ins still are

couldn’t explain how Tuffloud cycled that tank any other way…I had to fill in some gaps left in order to explain the work thread patterns emerging showing zero impacts from nitrite presence and ability to cycle reefs off reef water.


building up proofs that we don’t always have to buy or embellish the reef to get free water bac to do things in water is fun patterning. The board is so active with willing participants it’s a goldmine of data just waiting to be arranged.

 

[taricha]

there is very little beneficial bacteria in the water column and using old tank water will not assist the cycling process to any significant degree

This is a more subtle question than it appears.

Statement a)
There is very little beneficial bacteria [nitrifiers / tank cyclers] in the water column

and Statement b)
using old tank water will not assist cycling to any significant degree

I agree with statement A, but not entirely B.
If I take your water out of the tank and spike it with 0.5ppm ammonia, the time to process that will be unacceptably long for a reef - days to weeks. So as far as the chemistry is concerned, there is an insignificant amount of nitrifying bacteria in the water.

But, if I take your tank water out and move it to a new dry rock system, the nitrification will happen much faster than if only saltwater is added, and the tank would have far higher diversity of bacterial actors than if you just added a bottle of nitrifiers to a dry rock system. (but the bottle of nitrifiers would be faster.)
So there are biologically relevant amounts of beneficial bacteria [nitrifiers and others] in mature tank water, even if it's not large enough populations to change the chemistry readings immediately.

 

[burningmime]

There's more to beneficial bacteria than just nitrifiers. But quite a lot of it seems to come in on rocks (eg some of the PNS stuff and other chemotrophs).

No one sells used water. Simple as that.

Not entirely true. I saw in the BRS video where Jen set up the instatank 900, she used water from her store to seed it and says she does for clients when setting up tanks. And I mean if you buy bottle bac, you don't buy a big rock...

 

[DrZoidburg]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_anoxygenic_phototrophic_bacteria As well as other phototrophic bacteria. These guys float around in the water column. Important in the carbon cycle, and also have chlorophyll pigments that require nitrogen. As well as using ATP which requires phosphorus. In that sense they are doing something.

 

[brandon429]

Ammonia toxic to corals? - Reef Central Online Community

Ammonia toxic to corals? The Reef Chemistry Forum

reefcentral.com

for the op- what makes you want to cycle with corals, curious about that


your question is missing core context details: if you are dry rock cycling that’s one thing, if you are using transferred live rock from another tank that can instantly use corals because that’s skip cycling.

since the hobby has no written material on cycling other than dose ammonia to 2 ppm, add bottled bac for purchase, wait months until nitrite complies (this is the buyers info, recall the sellers never do any of this) the lack of clarity is understandable.



here’s a dry start tank, with corals on day one.

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

see how bottle bac doesn’t allow free ammonia to remain for days (unless api is the tester)


that’s not really a cycling tank, that too was skip cycled even though it was dry rocks. Curious to see what reefcentral comes up with, they aren’t allowed to see or be influenced by our findings so responses there will be unique to experience on the site.

 

[brandon429]

I am legit interested to see what reefcentral finds regarding waterborne bacteria/utility etc, someone post the question there so we can compare and contrast


post the question at nano-reef.com too so we can link it

I bet Seabass gets it right.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Aren't the majority of the Ammonia-oxidizing Archaea in the water column?

I think there is not agreement that most of the ammonia in a reef tank is oxidized that way. What happens in mid ocean far from solid surfaces where fish are not in high density may be very different than what happens in a reef tank or on a coral reef.

Simple experience with folks in the past using old water and new setups (including my own experiences when I won a set up tank at a MACNA with a huge number of fish in it) suggest it is not ready for a substantial ammonia demand, but I've not seen any careful testing.

 

[brandon429]

I bet that the interaction with surface area and biofilm establishment/community resourcing for mixed species that handle nitrification really boosts up the ability shortly after adding. agreed the initial ability from water wouldnt compare to even a week's wait in the presence of attachable rocks and sand area. I think roughly then the carry ability really expands. tbd one day in the future

 

[schooncw]

What exactly do you mean by beneficial bacteria?

I am specifically referring to the nitrogen cycle, nitrifying bacteria only.

 

[brandon429]

what approach had you researching about cycling w corals, curious to know

were you using dry rocks or live rock simply moved among tanks as the base


your question can also be interpreted as asking whether attaining detectable free ammonia is required to even cycle at all






it isnt... core outcome of recent findings. the 2 ppm thing is merely one way to cycle among many


and the ends are the same, relative to surface area and attachment points and positioning in the flow scheme.