Understanding nitrosoma bacteria and the cycle.

[Ballyhoo]

i'm trying to understand what these bacteria are and where they come from. I understand nitrosomes are involved in the nitrification process and convert a Nh4 or Nh3 to N02. I have a new cycling tank, and my ammonia has been fluctuating, but my N02 has also been fluctuating but rather high while my N03 has been relatively low but I would expect it to be so in a new tank. As it takes quite a bit of time for nitrates to build up. also, I understand there is distinction between ionized and an unionized ammonia I think an NH4 being ionized and NH3 being nonionized, with the former being much more harmful to livestock. I have not seen any test readily available like at an LFS distinguish between ionized and non-ionized ammonia. I have a 51 (G2 Max 200) gallon system that's just under two weeks old. I've added everything I can, including 30 lbs of LR, not from the ocean, but from a water tank at LFS, and macrobacter7. I even added a lab polyp block to boot soaked in Dr. Tim's. The polyp is likely a more long-term addition to the sump and I would not expect that would have any quick effect. Being very new to this reef experience and very quickly enamored by it I'm trying to understand how to get my nitrosome population to a level where it can outpace the ammonia volume especially NH4. Also, I'm wondering whether the onset of algae, not bloom necessarily but visual signs of algae in system indicate a cycled tank. I jumped the gun and bought a couple of juvenile clowns, likely prematurely and I noticed then nitrites are high and my ammonia was very low, but I'm still measuring everything very often with the limited kits available from LFS and I noticed a nitrate level low and fluctuating ammonia levels, not knowing whether it's ionized or unionized ammonia. Clowns seem like they're doing great though I'm not sure if I should be aggressive on water changes or let nature take course but I did purchase those silly little ammonia filters they sell online. Sponges. i hope those help absorb the ionized ammonia. also I keep my water at 81°F thinking warm water is more conducive towards bacterial growth. Of course I've also read issues contradicting this statement ie that lower temperatures are better to reduce ammonia.
add:
I realize many would consider that i committed ultimate reef sacrilege by adding a couple of clowns before a fully cycled tank i.e. before 4 weeks. But I have read clowns are hardy and some people did encourage me not to be obsessed with the initial cycle and that a couple of clowns would be good. I just don't want them to suffer. My daughter already has become attached to them so far so good with the clowns.

 

[Uncle99]

When adding pre-cycled rock, you’d be ready for two clowns right away, 4 weeks way overkill.

Your clowns were safe.

 

[brandon429]

Dang it man u got in b4 the diatribe nice draw.

 

[brandon429]

Was going to write a six paragrapher on how this one clause

including 30 lbs of LR

Meant you were ready day one.

Regarding the other, those params no longer factor in reefing for one reason:


You cannot earn less disease expression in your tank by waiting any longer or aligning nitrite and trate in an ideal manner

They're neutral params in a reef tank cycle, high or low doesn't matter

Ammonia matters

So why bother with them? All the rules say to i know

Bottle bac sellers made up some stuff about nitrite and attached it to a buying impulse for retail bac products

If nitrite doesn't comply we're trained like hamsters on pellets to buy more one and only. Maybe two bottles, just to be safe

That+the 90s wrote a lot of our rules and they didn't know about nitrite neutrality apparently at the time. That's for freshwater, ammonia is for reefing


We are applying freshwater reefing rules to reefing so we buy all their fluff bottles.

That's why the masses test for nitrite in reefing.

I've noticed trained chemists wielding test kits they have command over collect nitrite data for various studies and as a means to close a cycle as well. Based on their test kit handling skills, I trust their interpretation of nitrite data


Res publica pretty much only uses api nitrite, so they're subject to plain misreads for all the listed reasons api owners get misreads but still believe them

I say to ignore nitrite unless you're a chemist studying something

If you want to keep fish alive in a reef tank, use time- based cycling rules/ objective ones/ and put all your effort into Jay's fish disease forum.

Fish disease will be determined by your stocking order and biosecurity details

So if your tank is as safe now as it will ever be

And if your tank carries its maximum bioload right now, no more ramp up time needed, that's called a skip cycle

U were ready day one as he said

 

[brandon429]

So to review a reef tanks nitrogen cycle it must be split into two portions:

1. The actual data needed to cycle a reef tank with a 100% effective safe bioload carry rate, what 99.9% of people want in a thread with this title

Or

2. All other data points we can measure for tank cycling, links in the overall chain and are fascinating as a concept but have absolutely no bearing on bioload carry ability nor fish disease rates in reef tanking specifically.

It is absolutely not the case you need anything other than # of days running and cycling approach type (bottle bac=ten days wait, skip cycle is 0 days wait, blended cycle is 0 days because even half the amount of live rock we use still carries all common bioloads, and uncured rock cycles are always variable)

Any study outside those two data sets does not improve on the results focusing only on those two parameters currently gets. It's not like there's one fail out there from our time based method.

We do the timeline application then we never test for cycling params again, test nitrate if u want for coral color tuning/ invasion control, it's all disease vector preps from there on out

That's literally the safest mode you can cycle a reef tank to carry fish and its not using ammonia or nitrite test kits the whole time.

That's the specific time formula that runs all cycling threads where readiness is in question that I'm in.

Choose if you're going to stock fish first like everyone does then wind up in the disease forum in eight months (instantly brings in disease then all future additions like corals and clean up crew are new vectors)

Fallow and quarantine order of ops is your next big plan

 

[Ballyhoo]

So to review a reef tanks nitrogen cycle it must be split into two portions:

1. The actual data needed to cycle a reef tank with a 100% effective safe bioload carry rate, what 99.9% of people want in a thread with this title

Or

2. All other data points we can measure for tank cycling, links in the overall chain and are fascinating as a concept but have absolutely no bearing on bioload carry ability nor fish disease rates in reef tanking specifically.

It is absolutely not the case you need anything other than # of days running and cycling approach type (bottle bac=ten days wait, skip cycle is 0 days wait, blended cycle is 0 days because even half the amount of live rock we use still carries all common bioloads, and uncured rock cycles are always variable)

Any study outside those two data sets does not improve on the results focusing only on those two parameters currently gets. It's not like there's one fail out there from our time based method.

We do the timeline application then we never test for cycling params again, test nitrate if u want for coral color tuning/ invasion control, it's all disease vector preps from there on out

That's literally the safest mode you can cycle a reef tank to carry fish and its not using ammonia or nitrite test kits the whole time.

That's the specific time formula that runs all cycling threads where readiness is in question that I'm in.

Choose if you're going to stock fish first like everyone does then wind up in the disease forum in eight months (instantly brings in disease then all future additions like corals and clean up crew are new vectors)

Fallow and quarantine order of ops is your next big plan

well, do you think I'm safe right now with my two clowns? Waiting a while though for anything else. Or did those two clowns buy me into Jay's disease forum in 8 months time?

 

[brandon429]

It can carry twenty clowns, no problem. But behavioral issues are likely, demonstrates you are not partially cycled your fully cycled.

The truth is two clownfish are the exact species nano-reef.com has been featuring over 20 years in nanos, maybe with a small goby

And they aren't doing any preps, by and large they are tough. Brook and velvet are increasing in % risk nowadays but still among all speciation those two types are still passing eight months easily in the majority of nanos.

 

[brandon429]

The main application to your thread is that moving reef tanks never never uncycles the system. Rock bacteria remain always. So the new setup is skip cycle. You can see in my signature what people state is live rock often times isn't

So even if you did bottle bac on dry, dead rock its still a done cycle per listed timelines

 

[brandon429]

Hey I just caught this, nice tidbit

"Also, I'm wondering whether the onset of algae, not bloom necessarily but visual signs of algae in system indicate a cycled tank."

In 100% of cases, yes it does. If algae are in the tank or any new growths you didn't put there, they by rule of timing show up after bacteria that include cyclers.