Benefit to skimming besides increased PH and avoiding Nitrate?

[beaslbob]

Have there been any credible studies on skimmer as aerator? I see all these claims that a skimmer improves oxygenation, yada yada ….. but does it actually. Years ago, I borrowed a DO meter and tested my tank at various times throughout the 24 hour daily cycle. Running a skimmer versus not running a skimmer made very little difference to the DO levels. I've always had loads of intank circulation, an ATS, and various kinds of macra algae, so perhaps my tank is not representative …. but I tend to think skimmer as aerator in a well circulated tank is overblown.

And macro algae is underrated.

 

[rmurken]

So another way of wording my question - Does 100 percent of fish waste toxicity get converted and removed from an aquarium through natural processes? Do we need to intervene with a skimmer if natural processes are producing a 0 nitrate environment? This would be excluding water changes, skimming or any form of mechanical filtration. In essence, you have a box of water with a bunch of live rock, fish and filter feeders with water moving around but nothing physically REMOVING anything.

My intuition is that if you’re running low nitrate and low phosphate, you could skip the skimmer. I test out at 0 NO3 and not much PO4. I’ve been thinking of at least rolling back to intermittent skimmer use. Your question is making me think I might give it a shot.

 

[Tuffloud1]

Have there been any credible studies on skimmer as aerator? I see all these claims that a skimmer improves oxygenation, yada yada ….. but does it actually. Years ago, I borrowed a DO meter and tested my tank at various times throughout the 24 hour daily cycle. Running a skimmer versus not running a skimmer made very little difference to the DO levels. I've always had loads of intank circulation, an ATS, and various kinds of macra algae, so perhaps my tank is not representative …. but I tend to think skimmer as aerator in a well circulated tank is overblown.

I observe absolutely no difference in PH if my skimmer is on or off.

I guess oxygenation and PH are 2 different things, but it seems that if I was getting a ton of oxygenation from my skimmer, it would at least show some difference in PH with it on, opposed to off.

 

[EuphylliaAddict]

Would you recommend skimming if my NO3 is consistently undetectable and my PH is consistently 8.3 day and 8.2 at night?

Currently dosing 2 part, using IO salt.

Currently not running skimmer.

How young is this tank? Anything living in it?

 

[ca1ore]

I observe absolutely no difference in PH if my skimmer is on or off.
I guess oxygenation and PH are 2 different things, but it seems that if I was getting a ton of oxygenation from my skimmer, it would at least show some difference in PH with it on, opposed to off.

Not necessarily …. pH depends mostly on the levels of CO2 inside your home. You can run an outside airline or employ a CO2 scrubber, but if your tank is 'marinating' in a high CO2 room then neither of those things are going to make much of a difference. If your tank is poorly circulated, or has less optimal dimensions, it is certainly possible that the skimmer will help with oxygenation. In my systems, neither is true and skimmer makes very little difference to oxygen levels (at least, it didn't when i used to measure the levels).

I do run a skimmer, and have no plans to remove it; I do think it helps to remove organics and particulates. I also run the output of my CaRx into the skimmer so it can blow off any excess CO2.

 

[Jeff Jarry reef]

As for I have my skimmer on the lowest setting so I don't pull everything out and my P and N stay at good range. So my corals can get nutrients. I don't know if it helps but it seems it does.

 

[Tuffloud1]

Not necessarily …. pH depends mostly on the levels of CO2 inside your home. You can run an outside airline or employ a CO2 scrubber, but if your tank is 'marinating' in a high CO2 room then neither of those things are going to make much of a difference. If your tank is poorly circulated, or has less optimal dimensions, it is certainly possible that the skimmer will help with oxygenation. In my systems, neither is true and skimmer makes very little difference to oxygen levels (at least, it didn't when i used to measure the levels).

I do run a skimmer, and have no plans to remove it; I do think it helps to remove organics and particulates. I also run the output of my CaRx into the skimmer so it can blow off any excess CO2.

Right, although when I was testing this, my windows were open when running the skimmer and when not running it. I see no difference. My PH still peeks at 8.3 during day and lowers to 8.2 at night.

On the flip side, when the windows are closed, the PH peaks and lowers identical whether running the skimmer or not.

The windows being opened definitely allows elevated PH, however the skimmer being on or off doesn’t change anything.

I don’t think a skimmer does anything substantial for PH/Oxygenation if you already have adequate surface agitation/flow.

 

[Tuffloud1]

How young is this tank? Anything living in it?

6 year old 90 gallon reef transferred into a 262 gallon about a month ago. Added clean dry rock. I have a thread about it here.

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Victor_C3]

Here is the answer to the question “what does a skimmer remove”

Feature Article: Elemental Analysis of Skimmate: What Does a Protein Skimmer Actually Remove from Aquarium Water?

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. The chemical/elemental composition of skimmate generated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises.

www.advancedaquarist.com

Taken directly from the article:

“The chemical/elemental composition of skimmategenerated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises. Only a minor amount of the skimmate(solid + liquid) could be attributed to organic carbon (TOC); about 29%, and most of that material was not water soluble, i.e., was not dissolved organic carbon. The majority of the recovered skimmate solid, apart from the commons ions of seawater, was CaCO3, MgCO3, and SiO2 - inorganic compounds! The origin of these species is not known with certainity, but a good case can be made that the SiO2 stems from the shells of diatoms. The CaCO3might be derived from other planktonic microbes bearing calcium carbonate shells, or might come from calcium reactor effluent. To the extent that the solid skimmateconsists of microflora, then some proportion of the insoluble organic material removed by skimming would then simply be the organic components (the "guts") of these microflora. These microflora do concentrate P, N, and C nutrients from the water column, and so their removal via skimming does constitute a means of nutrient export.”


I have also read many articles comparing the variety of micro fauna in systems with and without a protein skimmer. In each case that was studied, the biodiversity of microfauna found skimmer-less aquarium systems is significantly more similar to that found in the ocean than that of aquarium systems running a skimmer.

The system I have just started within the last month is not using a protein skimmer, mostly because I wish to increase the biodiversity of my system. The sump of my system is 125 gallons and is filled with about 200 pounds of rock and I am also attempting to implement cryptic zonal filtration as described by Steve Tyree or Reeffarmers.com.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

gee if you get rid of the skimmer, the cheato will have more nutrients, grow faster, remove more co2 and return more o2.

Hmmmmmmm

my .02

Maybe. lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would you recommend skimming if my NO3 is consistently undetectable and my PH is consistently 8.3 day and 8.2 at night?

Currently dosing 2 part, using IO salt.

Currently not running skimmer.

I think a skimmer is a benefit for most tanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How can I tell if I have inadequate oxygenation even though my PH is 8.2 - 8.3?

Thanks Randy

pH is not a good indicator of O2, but a change in pH is an indication of incomplete aeration. Measurement of O2, with a meter, is the best way, but expensive.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m not concerned about the zero nitrate topic, I’m more so looking for an answer to this question.

There are probably few people that could really answer this question because you need to be a chemist to do so!

Does skimming remove something detrimental to our tanks that the natural nitrogen cycle and organisms cannot?

It certainly can remove many organic toxins. Whether you have substantial levels those in your tank may depend on the organisms you keep and the other export methods you use (like GAC).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is more inline with what I’m curious about.

Matter goes in as food, fish poo and it dissolves into the water column, bacteria break down the waste and the end result is nitrate, right?

So what exactly are we trying to remove if we already have undetectable nitrate? The system is using/processing what nitrate there is so what exactly am I trying to “skim” out?

This seems to be the question that I’ve never seen answered beyond the assumption that the “gunk” is just bad because it smells and looks gross.

Nitrate is a tiny part of the waste released as organisms live in your tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Have there been any credible studies on skimmer as aerator? I see all these claims that a skimmer improves oxygenation, yada yada ….. but does it actually. Years ago, I borrowed a DO meter and tested my tank at various times throughout the 24 hour daily cycle. Running a skimmer versus not running a skimmer made very little difference to the DO levels. I've always had loads of intank circulation, an ATS, and various kinds of macra algae, so perhaps my tank is not representative …. but I tend to think skimmer as aerator in a well circulated tank is overblown.

Yes.

Compare Figure 1 without skimmer to Figure 2 (and 3 to 4) with skimmer in this article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php

Big difference.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Would you recommend skimming if my NO3 is consistently undetectable and my PH is consistently 8.3 day and 8.2 at night?

Currently dosing 2 part, using IO salt.

Currently not running skimmer.

Are you happy with your tank in it’s current state? Do you have a lot of coral? Is your end goal to have a loaded tank? If so you can’t assume no3 won’t be an issue in the future. 4 years of low nitrates and now I’m seeing higher levels (and better color). I feel it’s better to skim now and get used to maintaining then add in the future imo.

fish grow, corals grow, flow changes, detritus becomes an actual issue as you lose the ability to reach certain areas.

 

[Tuffloud1]

Are you happy with your tank in it’s current state? Do you have a lot of coral? Is your end goal to have a loaded tank? If so you can’t assume no3 won’t be an issue in the future. 4 years of low nitrates and now I’m seeing higher levels (and better color). I feel it’s better to skim now and get used to maintaining then add in the future imo.

fish grow, corals grow, flow changes, detritus becomes an actual issue as you lose the ability to reach certain areas.

I recently transferred my 6 year old 90 into a new 262 gallon with added new dead dry rock. I definitely have the goal to fill it up with corals.

You have a good point that things will change over time.

My newly acquired 5 tangs and 3 wrasses (all baby/juveniles) will be growing up and produce more waste over the years which will be a huge contributor.