Best method for removing nitrates and phosphates?

[Ram]

What is the most effective way to remove them? Ive seen many products like chemipure, reactors, biopellets, prime, protein skimmers, etc. Which is the best?

I'm assuming a protein skimmer is mandatory. Live sand and good circulation too, so not to create a detritus sump. Feed and stock less. Use RODI. But after that its awash. What is the best method to remove them. I'm thinking of getting a sump with chaeto and a deep sand bed, maybe a reactor of some sort as well. I'm concerned a typical sump rated for your aquarium simply cant carry enough sand or chaeto to make a large impact.

What method works for you?

 

[Cory]

My ats keeps po4 consistantly below .05ppm. Usually 0, but sometimes its no3 limited.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What is the most effective way to remove them? Ive seen many products like chemipure, reactors, biopellets, prime, protein skimmers, etc. Which is the best?

I'm assuming a protein skimmer is mandatory. Live sand and good circulation too, so not to create a detritus sump. Feed and stock less. Use RODI. But after that its awash. What is the best method to remove them. I'm thinking of getting a sump with chaeto and a deep sand bed, maybe a reactor of some sort as well. I'm concerned a typical sump rated for your aquarium simply cant carry enough sand or chaeto to make a large impact.

What method works for you?

There are lots of good ways to reduce nitrate and phosphate, and there is not generally recognized "best" since they all have pros and cons. I use many at the same time to offset some of the cons. My methods include organic carbon dosing (vinegar), growing macroalgae, GFO, lots of live rock in refugia, skimming, and GAC.

I compare the various methods in these articles:

Phosphate In The Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/?p=3184

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium

 

[rayn]

Curious @Randy Holmes-Farley , do you use each in its own individual rector or something like the dial reactor from BRS?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Curious @Randy Holmes-Farley , do you use each in its own individual rector or something like the dial reactor from BRS?

I previously used GAC and GFO mixed in a single canister filter.

Then I got two different reactors from BRS. The two different reactors seems like a better way to go.

 

[YoCamron]

chemipure elite is the best way if you are still having problems after doing water changes, using RODI water, and a protein skimmer. I don't use a protein skimmer on any of my tanks because i want my corals to get as much nutrients as they can

 

[Brandon Donaldson]

I use a protenskimmer chemi pure and purigen macro algae and soon I will be using merical mud

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

chemipure elite is the best way if you are still having problems after doing water changes, using RODI water, and a protein skimmer. I don't use a protein skimmer on any of my tanks because i want my corals to get as much nutrients as they can

Why do you believe chemipure elite is better than other methods, even those using the same ingredients, like GFO?

 

[YoCamron]

Why do you believe chemipure elite is better than other methods, even those using the same ingredients, like GFO?

just a personal opinion. i used it in all my tanks, and it is great. from my own experience it is the best way of keeping any tank clear

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

just a personal opinion. i used it in all my tanks, and it is great. from my own experience it is the best way of keeping any tank clear

Have you tried other products like GFO alone and organic binders like GAC and Purigen to compare them to Chemipure Elite? Have you tried other methods including organic carbon dosing? Algal turf scrubbing? Aluminum oxide? Lanthanum?

It is wonderful and welcome to say you think something works well and you are happy with it, but to say it is the best product requires comparisons. That implies that other products do not work as well, and you'd get quite a challenge to that, I expect, from other members.

My reason for harping on this is I do not want anyone to go away from this thread thinking that Chemipure Elite is accepted as "better" than other methods to do the same thing.

 

[Ram]

I am considering the use of biopellets as my carbon dosing method... is that advisable or is there a reason vodka dosing is superior? Also is it worth buying a $350 recirculating reactor when a Two little Fishies reactor is $30? In addition, I'm assuming if one is using biopellets and some sort of GFO/GAC one doesn't really need a deep sand bed or chaeto?

 

[hybridazn]

I am considering the use of biopellets as my carbon dosing method... is that advisable or is there a reason vodka dosing is superior? Also is it worth buying a $350 recirculating reactor when a Two little Fishies reactor is $30? In addition, I'm assuming if one is using biopellets and some sort of GFO/GAC one doesn't really need a deep sand bed or chaeto?

You could always just buy the cheaper tlf reactor and modify it to be a recirculating if your into diy

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am considering the use of biopellets as my carbon dosing method... is that advisable or is there a reason vodka dosing is superior? Also is it worth buying a $350 recirculating reactor when a Two little Fishies reactor is $30? In addition, I'm assuming if one is using biopellets and some sort of GFO/GAC one doesn't really need a deep sand bed or chaeto?

Both can work well, and both have drawbacks.

A drawback to pellets is that it is not as easy to alter the "dose" over time as needed.

A drawback to soluble products is perhaps more potential for cyano.

I personally like the fact that many organisms can use the acetate in vinegar, corals, included, so it is not just a way to drive bacteria.

I compare them (and other methods) here:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION
http://www.reefedition.com/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium/

Biopellets

Biopellets are typically organic polymers (often PHB, polyhydroxybutyrate; shown below)):

Polyhydroxybutyrate

These polymers can very slowly degrade in sterile water, but in an aquarium, bacteria settle on them and release enzymes that chop up the polymers into smaller bits (such as hydroxybutyric acid, the building block of this polymer) much faster than the simple hydrolysis reaction would proceed on its own. PHB is a natural energy storage molecule for many bacteria, and so some bacteria are accustomed to making it and degrading it internally. Some bacteria earn a living by being ready to degrade such polymers when they encounter them outside their bodies (for example, from other bacteria that have died) and these bacteria release enzymes into the water to break down the polymer pellet. They then take up the released hydroxybutyric acid and metabolize it to gain energy.

In an aquarium setting, bacteria will coat the pellets, and digest much of the polymer themselves, using up nitrate and phosphate in the process as they grow and expand their tissues. Some of the released hydroxybutyric acid will make its way into the bulk water, so bacteria can also grow remotely from the pellets (including cyanobacteria). Consequently, it is not as confined of a process as is a carbon denitrator, even though it is usually carried out in a flow reactor.

This method can use slightly more nitrate than a proportional amount of phosphate if the bacteria form a thick enough layer on the pellet. In that case, the bacteria on the bottom (the pellet surface) can be oxygen limited, and may use nitrate as an electron acceptor (source of oxygen) as happens in deep sand beds, in addition to the N and P used to make their body tissues.

Organic Carbon Dosing

Organic carbon dosing involves adding a soluble organic compound to the aquarium which spurs bacterial growth. Typical organics used can be ethanol (as vodka), acetic acid (as vinegar), calcium acetate (as lime saturated vinegar), sugar (sucrose) and many others. Vodka and vinegar are by far the most popular. I use vinegar.

These organic molecules can be used by many organisms, including corals, but the main intent is to drive bacterial growth. To grow, the bacteria need a source of nitrogen and a source of phosphate, and a large portion of these they remove directly from the water. The bacteria may grow out of sight (inside live rock or sand, in refugia, in tubing, etc.). They may also grow in globs in the display tank. They have to grow somewhere. If they become unsightly, try dosing a different organic that may drive a different set of species that may grow in a different location. I’ve had them often seem to grow on GAC (granular activated carbon media) in a canister filter I previously used, allowing relatively easy export by rinsing the GAC once every couple of weeks.

I’ve never heard any plausible argument why dosing multiple organics at once is desirable, but many people do it and there is likely no harm in doing so. The idea that multiple organics drive a diversity of bacterial species is just speculation, and even if true, I don’t see the benefit.

The bacteria themselves can then be skimmed out, or used as a food for filter feeders, or both (most people probably have both to some extent, unless they do not use a skimmer). The bacteria may grow partly in low O2 regions (such as in sand or rock) and partly in highly oxygenated environments. Since metabolism in low O2 regions uses relatively more nitrate than phosphate compared to metabolism in a high O2 environment, the relative amounts of nitrate and phosphate reduction an aquarists observes may vary from system to system.

Nitrate is always reduced to a greater extent than phosphate simply because bacteria need a lot more nitrogen than phosphorus, but metabolism of organics in low O2 regions may skew it even more, and sometimes can leave the aquarium with little nitrate and an excess of phosphate that they bacteria don’t “want”. In such a case, a phosphate binder might usefully export this remaining phosphate. Alternatively, some aquarists have dosed nitrate directly to the aquarium to allow the residual phosphate to be consumed.

These linked articles describe vinegar and vodka dosing in more detail.

One potential drawback that may have played a role in some tank problems is that the bacteria that thrive when organic molecules are dosed may be benign (and appear to be in almost all cases), but might actually be pathogenic in others. That is, the added organics may enhance bacterial infections if those bacteria causing the infection (of fish, corals, etc.) are able to take up the added organics and use them to grow faster. I think this risk is low, but it may be real. If you have unexplained problems that might fit this description, and are organic carbon dosing, try not dosing for an extended period.

A second potential drawback of organic carbon dosing is the potential for proliferation of unsightly cyanobacteria in the display tank. There are many species of cyanobacteria, and some can consume the organics we add in this method. If they become a primary consumer, then something may need to be done, such as switching to a different organic compound to dose, or reducing phosphate with a binder such as GFO (granular ferric oxide).

 

[YoCamron]

Have you tried other products like GFO alone and organic binders like GAC and Purigen to compare them to Chemipure Elite? Have you tried other methods including organic carbon dosing? Algal turf scrubbing? Aluminum oxide? Lanthanum?

It is wonderful and welcome to say you think something works well and you are happy with it, but to say it is the best product requires comparisons. That implies that other products do not work as well, and you'd get quite a challenge to that, I expect, from other members.

My reason for harping on this is I do not want anyone to go away from this thread thinking that Chemipure Elite is accepted as "better" than other methods to do the same thing.

i said it was from my personal experience... no one else has to agree with me, its all opinions, nothing will ever be the best for everyone. GAC and purigen never gave me results like chemipure does. GFO's alone are decent, but why not get a GFO+AC in one bag. i haven't tried an algae turf scrub and i never will. chemipure works the best for me, and thats just my personal opinion

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i said it was from my personal experience... no one else has to agree with me, its all opinions, nothing will ever be the best for everyone. GAC and purigen never gave me results like chemipure does. GFO's alone are decent, but why not get a GFO+AC in one bag. i haven't tried an algae turf scrub and i never will. chemipure works the best for me, and thats just my personal opinion

OK, just wanting a bit more explanation of what "the best way" means.

 

[mike321]

Red Sea nopox works great.

 

[hawaiifavo]

I previously used Chemipure Elite instead of GFO and Carbon and it worked really well for me until recently. My first indication that something was wrong was a cyano outbreak that just wouldn't quit despite numerous troubleshooting efforts and manual cleanups.

My tank is fully stocked with fish, which I feed twice a day,I target feed my corals once a week and I have a MM fuge with chaeto algae. My tank is 120G and my sump/fuge is 65G with a Vertex Omega 150. My tank has been running for 18 months and only in the last month have my phosphates gone from a regular 0.025 to 0.175.

I put the rise in Phosphates down to chemipure elite no longer being able to get the job done - even after changing out the media at regular intervals - the latest round of chemipure elite didn't put a dent in the phosphates or the cyano.

I purchased a BRS reactor for GFO only and my phosphates are down to 0.050 and after a manual cleanup of the cyano its remaining under control and so far has not re-appeared.

Could it be that Chemi-pure elite is good for newer or lower nutrient tanks where as tanks that are fully stocked/more mature require a more robust solution to dealing with Phosphates ie a reactor and GFO?

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Chemi-pure is sworn as the best by many people but on large tanks that are heavily stocked and fed it would take a lot of Chemi-pure to keep nitrates and phosphates down. After getting back into the hobby after 7 years out of it, I went bare bottom on a 300 gallon system 260 gallon display tank. was dosing vinegar and kalk. Now using GFO, GAC in their own reactor and pellets in a recirculating reactor, a calcium reactor and an oversized skimmer. I never thought I would have nutrient levels so low that I could go two weeks without cleaning the glass and still hardly need it then even though I was feeding fish 2-3 times a day. It was not until my gfo capacity was depleted did I really get a film on the glass. I also learned not the best for the corals so I started feeding heavier. I am going to try the all in one pellets I know some people say they work great and others say not any better than using gfo and pellets separately. If it works per the claims then the part I like is no sudden change from changing out the gfo all at once. It may cause a little more iron to be suspended but not dissolved in the water which will be pulled out by my skimmer. it used to be said you could never over skim but with the use of bio pellets, gfo and gac with an over sized skimmer you can get the water too low in nutrients.

 

[gimmito]

Hi Randy,

I use a sulfur denitrator to remove nitrates and a lanthum chloride to reduce phosphates. I would be interested to hear your experience/thoughts on using them.

Jim

 

[LouieP]

I recommend & use an Algae Turf Scrubber. I use to use a sulfur reactor to remove my NO3 but I still had high PO3 so I purchased a ATS from Turbo's Aquatics which it removes both NO3 & PO3 and its believed to feed your corals as well. Here is my thread on my ATS.

I thought a skimmer doesn't pull out NO3 or PO3. I personally don't run a skimmer but I like to run ozone so I may have to put a skimmer back on my tank until I get a O3 Reactor.