Phosphate help

[alicia24]

Hello all,
I have a 60g (fish only) and 90g (lps & softies). Both have phosphate issues. I use phosguard for both but it's expensive and only effective for a few days. In both tanke the phosphate averages 0.30 (hanna). The 60g is 10 months old and has terrible gha. My anemone is not happy when the phosphates get high and from the algae. The 90g has tons of green sheet algae. My lights run for 10hrs but it's mostly blues for that time. The 90 I just added chaeto to the sump but dont have a fuge. The 60g is not drilled so I can't try chaeto (at least dont know how). I'm very confused what to do. I read protein skimming (which I dont have) doesnt really significantly help phosphate. I was thinking maybe a phosphate reactor?? I also read on here testing the rodi for phosphate isnt really the answer so I havent tried that but I do make my own rodi. Wondering also if salt mix (i use IO) can play a role? The phosguard is getting way too expensive and doesnt last long. Thank you and sorry this is so long! Not sure if it matters but my nitrates are also averaging about 20-30 in both tanks.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Tropic Marin makes a product called Elimi NP. It has really helped bring my phosphate and nitrate into range.

 

[alicia24]

Tropic Marin makes a product called Elimi NP. It has really helped bring my phosphate and nitrate into range.

Thank you!! Im going to look that up now!

 

[fushi]

Hello all,
I have a 60g (fish only) and 90g (lps & softies). Both have phosphate issues. I use phosguard for both but it's expensive and only effective for a few days. In both tanke the phosphate averages 0.30 (hanna). The 60g is 10 months old and has terrible gha. My anemone is not happy when the phosphates get high and from the algae. The 90g has tons of green sheet algae. My lights run for 10hrs but it's mostly blues for that time. The 90 I just added chaeto to the sump but dont have a fuge. The 60g is not drilled so I can't try chaeto (at least dont know how). I'm very confused what to do. I read protein skimming (which I dont have) doesnt really significantly help phosphate. I was thinking maybe a phosphate reactor?? I also read on here testing the rodi for phosphate isnt really the answer so I havent tried that but I do make my own rodi. Wondering also if salt mix (i use IO) can play a role? The phosguard is getting way too expensive and doesnt last long. Thank you and sorry this is so long! Not sure if it matters but my nitrates are also averaging about 20-30 in both tanks.

There are many options, TM Elimi NP is one of the carbon dosing options, macro algae is another ( there are types that grow well in the tank like calurpa), increasing water changes is usually the easiest and quickest. GFO is another and I believe cheaper than Phosguard just be careful it is strong so start with a small amount.


But a little more info would be helpful, what are your nitrates? Are they also high?

 

[alicia24]

There are many options, TM Elimi NP is one of the carbon dosing options, macro algae is another ( there are types that grow well in the tank like calurpa), increasing water changes is usually the easiest and quickest. GFO is another and I believe cheaper than Phosguard just be careful it is strong so start with a small amount.


But a little more info would be helpful, what are your nitrates? Are they also high?

Can gfo just go in a hob filter? Thats all I have for the 60g. The nitrates range from 20-30 in both tanks. So yes they always run high. I do feed twice a day with frozen and ideally dont want to reduce that as they always seem so hungry lol.

 

[joaocdestro]

Fish poop have 3 main destines:
1st will be eaten by corals and bacterias,
2nd will be exported by skimmer.
3rd The fish poop that stays on sand/rocks/etc... will be decomposed to Amonia and then No3 and Po4.

No3 and Po4 can't be removed by skimmer because it's a chemichal diluted on water, there is no superficial tension to stick in the bubbles of a skimmer.

Usually a living organism, have a redfield ratio on it's cells: Carbon + No3 + Po4 (you can see this at Triton method manual), so many aquarist dose Vodka, Vinegar, Nopox from red sea, Elimini NP from tropic, that add's carbon, so this ORGANIC Carbon + no3 + Po4 will be ingredients to bacteria reproduce, and then this bacteria will feed corals or be exported by your skimmer.
No3 will be easy to reduce this way, but bacteria need's less Po4 to reproduce, and then you will accumulate Po4.

Ways to remove the remaining Po4:
Slow speed - aluminum based products (Like seachem Phosguard)
Medium speed (recommended by 80% of aquarists) -> GFO this is just Granular Ferric Oxide - Po4 bonds to RUST! that's why some people trow nails in sump. (i don't recommend this), use GFO for example from bulk reef supply.
Ultra fast - lanthanum cloride or Iron concentrate - both elements will bond to Po4 instantanely and will settle everywere in your aquarium, and will never convert again to Po4. This is very very fast, and you should use a very small amount. This is recommended by World Wide Corals but they have huge reef size.

Anything you have doubt there are tons of forums here to explain what I'm telling you.

About levels... there are tons of this content here in reef2reef... I think No3 and Po4 are your best friends! you should not reduce too much... in my 250g I like to maintain No3 10-20 and Po4 arround 0,08

Today I'm dosing Ammonium Bicarbonate to better feed my corals and maintain No3 on desired levels.

DIY Chemistry Archive

I thought it would be useful to have an archive of DIY chemistry methods. I'll add to it as things come up. Calcium and Alkalinity DIY method comparison https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/randy-recommended-diy-two-part-recipes.984604/ Three Part using Sodium Hydroxide (including Balling Part...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[fushi]

Can gfo just go in a hob filter? Thats all I have for the 60g. The nitrates range from 20-30 in both tanks. So yes they always run high. I do feed twice a day with frozen and ideally dont want to reduce that as they always seem so hungry lol.

Rinsing your frozen food with a strainer can be very helpful.

Amazon cheap option

Fancy option

You could put gfo in a reactor and hang it on the back. But I would treat the Nitrates and phosphates together not just focus on the Phos. I would also be careful not to drop the Nitrates and phosphates too low you want to have a detectable amount of them. Say 1 - 10 ppm nitrates and 0.01 -0.1 ppm Phosphates

Personally I would recommend:
Water changes as the first step, say maybe 3- 30% water changes in a week.
Manually remove as much hair algae as you can during the water changes.

At the same time start rinsing your frozen food and reducing the amount you feed. You can still feed twice a day, just cut the amount you feed each time in half.

Also get some great clean up crew. Tuxedo urchin, emerald crabs, Caribbean Nerite snails, trochus snails, fighting conchs. They are super helpful.

If you can’t keep your Nitrates and phosphates at a reasonable level after the above list of steps, carbon dosing might be a good option. It’s just important to remember the is no magic fix and carbon dosing can have undesirable side effects. I have had some tanks where carbon dosing work great and others where it turned into a snotty mess of bacteria. So just be aware.

If you decide to try carbon dosing start with half of whatever the recommended starting amount is and go slow… very slow. I would also recommend a skimmer with carbon dosing, they make hang on back versions.


And finally I know some people on this form will hate this recommendation but I stand by it!
Trace elements, I find when you get your trace elements in line things like algae issues start to go away or become easier to manage. Maybe the coral growth sparked by the trace boost uses up a lot of the excess N&P. IDK but I know it works in my tanks and the nay sayers are just grumpy lol
Get an ICP of your lps tank and see what you get.

However Water changes are your best friend to get your current predicament under control before trying other options.

 

[alicia24]

Fish poop have 3 main destines:
1st will be eaten by corals and bacterias,
2nd will be exported by skimmer.
3rd The fish poop that stays on sand/rocks/etc... will be decomposed to Amonia and then No3 and Po4.

No3 and Po4 can't be removed by skimmer because it's a chemichal diluted on water, there is no superficial tension to stick in the bubbles of a skimmer.

Usually a living organism, have a redfield ratio on it's cells: Carbon + No3 + Po4 (you can see this at Triton method manual), so many aquarist dose Vodka, Vinegar, Nopox from red sea, Elimini NP from tropic, that add's carbon, so this ORGANIC Carbon + no3 + Po4 will be ingredients to bacteria reproduce, and then this bacteria will feed corals or be exported by your skimmer.
No3 will be easy to reduce this way, but bacteria need's less Po4 to reproduce, and then you will accumulate Po4.

Ways to remove the remaining Po4:
Slow speed - aluminum based products (Like seachem Phosguard)
Medium speed (recommended by 80% of aquarists) -> GFO this is just Granular Ferric Oxide - Po4 bonds to RUST! that's why some people trow nails in sump. (i don't recommend this), use GFO for example from bulk reef supply.
Ultra fast - lanthanum cloride or Iron concentrate - both elements will bond to Po4 instantanely and will settle everywere in your aquarium, and will never convert again to Po4. This is very very fast, and you should use a very small amount. This is recommended by World Wide Corals but they have huge reef size.

Anything you have doubt there are tons of forums here to explain what I'm telling you.

About levels... there are tons of this content here in reef2reef... I think No3 and Po4 are your best friends! you should not reduce too much... in my 250g I like to maintain No3 10-20 and Po4 arround 0,08

Today I'm dosing Ammonium Bicarbonate to better feed my corals and maintain No3 on desired levels.

DIY Chemistry Archive

I thought it would be useful to have an archive of DIY chemistry methods. I'll add to it as things come up. Calcium and Alkalinity DIY method comparison https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/randy-recommended-diy-two-part-recipes.984604/ Three Part using Sodium Hydroxide (including Balling Part...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you so much for the detailed response! Very informative. If I dont have a skimmer will the elimi np still be effective? In the 60g I dont have corals. Im less worried about the nitrate as I am the phosphate but I could be wrong in thinking that!

 

[alicia24]

Rinsing your frozen food with a strainer can be very helpful.

Amazon cheap option

Fancy option

You could put gfo in a reactor and hang it on the back. But I would treat the Nitrates and phosphates together not just focus on the Phos. I would also be careful not to drop the Nitrates and phosphates too low you want to have a detectable amount of them. Say 1 - 10 ppm nitrates and 0.01 -0.1 ppm Phosphates

Personally I would recommend:
Water changes as the first step, say maybe 3- 30% water changes in a week.
Manually remove as much hair algae as you can during the water changes.

At the same time start rinsing your frozen food and reducing the amount you feed. You can still feed twice a day, just cut the amount you feed each time in half.

Also get some great clean up crew. Tuxedo urchin, emerald crabs, Caribbean Nerite snails, trochus snails, fighting conchs. They are super helpful.

If you can’t keep your Nitrates and phosphates at a reasonable level after the above list of steps, carbon dosing might be a good option. It’s just important to remember the is no magic fix and carbon dosing can have undesirable side effects. I have had some tanks where carbon dosing work great and others where it turned into a snotty mess of bacteria. So just be aware.

If you decide to try carbon dosing start with half of whatever the recommended starting amount is and go slow… very slow. I would also recommend a skimmer with carbon dosing, they make hang on back versions.


And finally I know some people on this form will hate this recommendation but I stand by it!
Trace elements, I find when you get your trace elements in line things like algae issues start to go away or become easier to manage. Maybe the coral growth sparked by the trace boost uses up a lot of the excess N&P. IDK but I know it works in my tanks and the nay sayers are just grumpy lol
Get an ICP of your lps tank and see what you get.

However Water changes are your best friend to get your current predicament under control before trying other options.

Thank you for the warning about carbon dosing! Good to know about the skimmer too. I see what youre saying about the trace elements and it makes sense! I do need a cuc. Just worried because I have a puffer and melanrus so I've just been the cuc lol.

 

[fushi]

Thank you so much for the detailed response! Very informative. If I dont have a skimmer will the elimi np still be effective? In the 60g I dont have corals. Im less worried about the nitrate as I am the phosphate but I could be wrong in thinking that!

Yes carbon dosing will still be effective, but it doesn’t just make the N&P disappear, it get basically converted into more bacteria and your gonna want to remove that bacteria some how, frequent water changes, skimming, etc.

I would treat nitrates and phosphates as a whole together. Yes sometimes one can get more out of wack than another but at the end of the day your trying to keep your tank in a healthy balance. When your parameters are in a good balance things get easier. A reef tank will always be a lot of work but it doesn’t have to constantly be a headache.

Thank you for the warning about carbon dosing! Good to know about the skimmer too. I see what youre saying about the trace elements and it makes sense! I do need a cuc. Just worried because I have a puffer and melanrus so I've just been the cuc lol.

Urchins may be a good option then, also a fish that eats algae are helpful too.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

phosphate and nitrate are different things, and are removed from your tank in different ways:

To remove nitrates you can use a refugium, or a skimmer, or vodka dosing, or water changes..... these will all remove nitrates.

To remove phosphates you need a phosphate remover, either GFO like rowa phos, or liquid phosphate remover.

what kind of food do you feed? How often you feed? How often you do water changes? How is your flow? How stocked are you tanks? Do you have corals, how are they? What kind of test kit are you using for phosphate?

Pictures of the tank will really help.

You have no rodi unit , no skimmer, and I get the sense of very little filtration overall in your tanks.

 

[alicia24]

Yes carbon dosing will still be effective, but it doesn’t just make the N&P disappear, it get basically converted into more bacteria and your gonna want to remove that bacteria some how, frequent water changes, skimming, etc.

I would treat nitrates and phosphates as a whole together. Yes sometimes one can get more out of wack than another but at the end of the day your trying to keep your tank in a healthy balance. When your parameters are in a good balance things get easier. A reef tank will always be a lot of work but it doesn’t have to constantly be a headache.



Urchins may be a good option then, also a fish that eats algae are helpful too.

Thank you!! You've been very helpful I appreciate it! I was thinking an urchin so I will try and get one of those. Maybe lawnmower blenny. The parameters are quite a headache right now lol but hopefully I get this in check. I'm going to try less food & rinsing and do weekly instead of bi weekly water changes.

 

[alicia24]

phosphate and nitrate are different things, and are removed from your tank in different ways:

To remove nitrates you can use a refugium, or a skimmer, or vodka dosing, or water changes..... these will all remove nitrates.

To remove phosphates you need a phosphate remover, either GFO like rowa phos, or liquid phosphate remover.

what kind of food do you feed? How often you feed? How often you do water changes? How is your flow? How stocked are you tanks? Do you have corals, how are they? What kind of test kit are you using for phosphate?

Pictures of the tank will really help.

You have no rodi unit , no skimmer, and I get the sense of very little filtration overall in your tanks.

I have a rodi unit. No skimmer you are correct the hobby is expensive and I havent felt the need to get one but am starting to think I need one or two in this sense. I feed a blend of frozen mysis, brine, and seafood medly. Twice a day. I only do water changes bi weekly. The 60g has 5 fish. The 90g has 8 fish. For testing phosphate I use hanna ulr. Only corals in 90g they are healthy but growth is very slow that's one of the main reasons I'm trying to get phosphate under control to see of it's the issue. I think the flow is good in the 90g - two power heads & return pump. 60g just one powerhead and hob filter. My camera is pretty horrible but I've attached pics. 90g is fallow right now (whole diff story). I just turned the lights on for the pics so corals arent very open.

 

[fushi]

Thank you!! You've been very helpful I appreciate it! I was thinking an urchin so I will try and get one of those. Maybe lawnmower blenny. The parameters are quite a headache right now lol but hopefully I get this in check. I'm going to try less food & rinsing and do weekly instead of bi weekly water changes.

I like tuxedo urchins, lawnmower blenny, bi color blenny, starry blennys. I think rinsing and reducing food will really get things started in the right direction.

Soft corals also love to take up nutrients, some people even use pulsing Xenia as a refugium, probably not the magic fix for your tank but could be added as a part of a big picture approach.

Just saw the pictures of your tank, it’s not great but not that bad I have hade tanks get way worse. Lol You’ll be ok, it just takes time and patience.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

the algae is not that bad in my opinion, but I understand that any algae is ugly to look at.

You have no corals, so you can turn off your lights for a while. Don't know if you are interested in corals, but it does help introduce more biodiversity when you introduce corals from different sources (more biodiversity helps fight algae off) , and of course, corals help to shade the rocks so algae can't grow.

If you are not into corals, then consider buying a few pieces of true live rock. Mature live rock doesn't grow algae very easily since its do encrusted with biodiversity. If not, then try to get pieces of rubble from other peoples tanks, or a little scoop of sand....

 

[alicia24]

I like tuxedo urchins, lawnmower blenny, bi color blenny, starry blennys. I think rinsing and reducing food will really get things started in the right direction.

Soft corals also love to take up nutrients, some people even use pulsing Xenia as a refugium, probably not the magic fix for your tank but could be added as a part of a big picture approach.

Just saw the pictures of your tank, it’s not great but not that bad I have hade tanks get way worse. Lol You’ll be ok, it just takes time and patience.

I love pulsing xenias! I have one but its just a tiny frag. Had no idea about putting it in refugium. Feels like the algae will never go away but thank you for the positive encouragement!

 

[alicia24]

the algae is not that bad in my opinion, but I understand that any algae is ugly to look at.

You have no corals, so you can turn off your lights for a while. Don't know if you are interested in corals, but it does help introduce more biodiversity when you introduce corals from different sources (more biodiversity helps fight algae off) , and of course, corals help to shade the rocks so algae can't grow.

If you are not into corals, then consider buying a few pieces of true live rock. Mature live rock doesn't grow algae very easily since its do encrusted with biodiversity. If not, then try to get pieces of rubble from other peoples tanks, or a little scoop of sand....

Thank you for saying its not that bad lol. I have a nem in the 60g so I have to have light on and corals in the 90g. Very interesting about biodiversity with adding corals. I am interesting in adding some but worried about the angel eatting them. The 90g has live rock while the 60 doesnt so maybe I'll move some in there

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I would not recommend elimi NP or any other carbon dosing scheme to lower phosphate that has been resistant to treatments like phosguard.

The salt mix is not part of the issue. Removing phosphate bound to rock and sand likely is.

You may not need to lower phosphate as one can have a wonderful reef tank at that level and higher, but if you do want to lower it, binders will be the easiest (phosguard, GFO, or lanthanum (the latter if cost is the biggest issue).

 

[alicia24]

FWIW, I would not recommend elimi NP or any other carbon dosing scheme to lower phosphate that has been resistant to treatments like phosguard.

The salt mix is not part of the issue. Removing phosphate bound to rock and sand likely is.

You may not need to lower phosphate as one can have a wonderful reef tank at that level and higher, but if you do want to lower it, binders will be the easiest (phosguard, GFO, or lanthanum (the latter if cost is the biggest issue).

Thank you! I guess I'm thinking the algae is from the phosphate or at least want to rule it out. Phsoguard does work but only when I change it every 4 days and that adds up cost wise. Does phosphate ever stabilize? I.e. the phosphate gets fully removed from the salt & rock? Just wondering if there's ever an end to using these kind of products as the tank matures or if this is just what I should I expect

 

[iReefer12]

Fwiw, I tested po4 in my tank yesterday and it was 0.61ppm

I want it lower, but my nems and corals are all thriving regardless. Something else may be upsetting your anemone.