Best Non-Formalin QT Regimen?

[cdw79]

Currently have my DT fallow for what I believe to have been Brook. Luckily all the fish that were in the DT have seemingly recovered and are doing well in QT, and I'm patiently awaiting my fish-less DT period to be finished.

Ahead of eventually adding new fish to the tank, I want to get my head around what a robust QT will look like- one that helps me avoid any future Uronema or Brook outbreaks along with Ich and velvet of course.

My issue is I am dead set on not using formalin in any case- just not willing to take a risk to my own health even if it might potentially be small. Can anyone share their QT regimens that would cover all four bases, but that won't require formalin or anything else potentially carcinogenic? Seems from my research that there are a ton of different approaches people have, but I want to be positive I'm not cutting any more corners.

 

[threebuoys]

This link describes the QT process we recommend most frequently. Formalin is typically recommended for the treatment of Brooklynella. Brook tends to be seen most often on clownfish harvested in the wild. So, the use of formalin tends to be very focused. Another product claimed to be successful for treating Brook is Rally Pro from Ruby Reef. While this product originally contained formalin, the current version does not per information obtained from Ruby Reef. My advice is to only treat for Brook when strong evidence suggests it is present. If you do not have it in your tank, the odds it will be introduced by species other than clownfish are low. The use of formalin prophylactically to avoid Brook should not be necessary.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Uronema is not an obligate parasite and is assumed to be present in almost all tanks. Oce it is visible, treatment is rarely if ever successful. However, it is not contagious and tends to affect some species more than others.

Heres an article on Uronema

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

This link describes the QT process we recommend most frequently. Formalin is typically recommended for the treatment of Brooklynella. Brook tends to be seen most often on clownfish harvested in the wild. So, the use of formalin tends to be very focused. Another product claimed to be successful for treating Brook is Rally Pro from Ruby Reef. While this product originally contained formalin, the current version does not per information obtained from Ruby Reef. My advice is to only treat for Brook when strong evidence suggests it is present. If you do not have it in your tank, the odds it will be introduced by species other than clownfish are low. The use of formalin prophylactically to avoid Brook should not be necessary.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Uronema is not an obligate parasite and is assumed to be present in almost all tanks. Oce it is visible, treatment is rarely if ever successful. However, it is not contagious and tends to affect some species more than others.

Heres an article on Uronema

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Chloroquine po4 could be tried. Ruby rally pro does contain formalin per their wwbsite

 

[threebuoys]

Chloroquine po4 could be tried. Ruby rally pro does contain formalin per their wwbsite

I think you need to double check your source. Over a year ago I communicated directly with the folks at Rally Reef and they assured me no measureable formalin was in this product any more. Many of the other websites, BRS to name one, still show the formulation from the previous version of this product.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ruby-rally-pro-new-information.914842/

 

[cdw79]

This link describes the QT process we recommend most frequently. Formalin is typically recommended for the treatment of Brooklynella. Brook tends to be seen most often on clownfish harvested in the wild. So, the use of formalin tends to be very focused. Another product claimed to be successful for treating Brook is Rally Pro from Ruby Reef. While this product originally contained formalin, the current version does not per information obtained from Ruby Reef. My advice is to only treat for Brook when strong evidence suggests it is present. If you do not have it in your tank, the odds it will be introduced by species other than clownfish are low. The use of formalin prophylactically to avoid Brook should not be necessary.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Uronema is not an obligate parasite and is assumed to be present in almost all tanks. Oce it is visible, treatment is rarely if ever successful. However, it is not contagious and tends to affect some species more than others.

Heres an article on Uronema

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks for the breakdown! Had no idea about the point about uronema- learning something every day.

One question I did have, which is part of the source of my confusion, is this 14 day copper method. From what I gather, the fish stay in copper, get transferred to a new tank, get prazipro while staying under observation, and then are seemingly good to go after a few weeks in tank #2. This is obviously different than the full blown breakdown in the link you sent, but I see this method at several of the mainline QT retailers. If I buy from them assuming they use this method, am I taking a big risk? I've heard of this 2 weeks of copper then 2-4 weeks under prazi + observation before, but I'm not sure what the pros and cons are.

 

[threebuoys]

Thanks for the breakdown! Had no idea about the point about uronema- learning something every day.

One question I did have, which is part of the source of my confusion, is this 14 day copper method. From what I gather, the fish stay in copper, get transferred to a new tank, get prazipro while staying under observation, and then are seemingly good to go after a few weeks in tank #2. This is obviously different than the full blown breakdown in the link you sent, but I see this method at several of the mainline QT retailers. If I buy from them assuming they use this method, am I taking a big risk? I've heard of this 2 weeks of copper then 2-4 weeks under prazi + observation before, but I'm not sure what the pros and cons are.

You are correct that some promote QT processes with different time lines and methodology than what is contained in our recommended protocol. Our protocol is based on professional experience (@Jay Hemdal ) and hobbyists' experience over decades. The life cycles of ich and velvet and fluke parasites have been considered during the development of the protocol. Once a decision is made to QT with copper, the question I pose is why not stick it out for 4 weeks instead of two? Is getting the fish into the DT two weeks sooner more important than giving the protocol the best shot at successfully eliminating the parasitic risk? Should the two week shortcut not be successful, the required effort to address the problem increases significantly.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the breakdown! Had no idea about the point about uronema- learning something every day.

One question I did have, which is part of the source of my confusion, is this 14 day copper method. From what I gather, the fish stay in copper, get transferred to a new tank, get prazipro while staying under observation, and then are seemingly good to go after a few weeks in tank #2. This is obviously different than the full blown breakdown in the link you sent, but I see this method at several of the mainline QT retailers. If I buy from them assuming they use this method, am I taking a big risk? I've heard of this 2 weeks of copper then 2-4 weeks under prazi + observation before, but I'm not sure what the pros and cons are.

Two weeks of copper is typically what is used with ionic copper, where you need to keep the fish in it for as absolutely as short a time as possible to avoid toxicity. Chelated copper that is amine-based, like coppersafe and copper power is safer, and should be used for 30 days. Here is the issue - copper does not kill the resting, tomont stage of ich. Two weeks is just not long enough it ensure that all of the tomonts have hatched out, even with the two weeks observation/prazi tacked on the end. Our process that uses 30 days copper, plus two weeks of prazi, plus 2 weeks of (optional) observation takes you beyond the length of time that any tomonts could survive.

One trick you can use if you absolutely need to run a short copper treatment, is to treat it for two weeks, then run the course of prazi, then redose the copper and remove the fish after they have been in it for 3 more days. Any tomonts then won't matter, and the second dose of copper will kill any theronts that might have emerged.

Jay

 

[cdw79]

Really appreciate the expertise here from both of you.

This isn't intended to throw any retailers under the bus- doing QT at en masse has got to be an incredibly hard job. But having previously had no qualms about some of the vendors' processes, now I'm starting to have a bit of hesitation. If I were to order from a retailer that took the approach I mentioned above- 2 weeks in copper, Prazi, and observation - what would be the recommended approach once I were to get them in? Not sure if @Jay Hemdal 's mention of a couple extra days in copper would apply since I'm not able to get them immediately after, seemingly. I also found this on Humblefish while researching, would this approach not be recommended? https://humble.fish/community/index... treat a fish,non-medicated) observation tank.

Ultimately, I want to avoid any unnecessary risks, within reason. Like @threebuoys mentioned, why not do the extra 2 weeks. When I QT fish, namely fish I can't easily source through a QT vendor, I plan to go the extra mile and just get it done right. But I also have a fairly demanding job, and I do want to try and opt for some pre-quarantined fish to lighten the quarantining load.

So while I now feel pretty confident with the more appropriate approach to QT, is there any way to "salvage" the pre-quarantined livestock that hasn't had the full 4 weeks of copper? I assume that because they haven't been in copper for 4 weeks, ich (which I'm really not bothered by) and velvet (which I'm pretty freaked out by) are still possibilities?

Thanks so much both

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Really appreciate the expertise here from both of you.

This isn't intended to throw any retailers under the bus- doing QT at en masse has got to be an incredibly hard job. But having previously had no qualms about some of the vendors' processes, now I'm starting to have a bit of hesitation. If I were to order from a retailer that took the approach I mentioned above- 2 weeks in copper, Prazi, and observation - what would be the recommended approach once I were to get them in? Not sure if @Jay Hemdal 's mention of a couple extra days in copper would apply since I'm not able to get them immediately after, seemingly. I also found this on Humblefish while researching, would this approach not be recommended? https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/explaining-the-14-days-in-copper-method.7603/#:~:text=Basically, you treat a fish,non-medicated) observation tank.

Ultimately, I want to avoid any unnecessary risks, within reason. Like @threebuoys mentioned, why not do the extra 2 weeks. When I QT fish, namely fish I can't easily source through a QT vendor, I plan to go the extra mile and just get it done right. But I also have a fairly demanding job, and I do want to try and opt for some pre-quarantined fish to lighten the quarantining load.

So while I now feel pretty confident with the more appropriate approach to QT, is there any way to "salvage" the pre-quarantined livestock that hasn't had the full 4 weeks of copper? I assume that because they haven't been in copper for 4 weeks, ich (which I'm really not bothered by) and velvet (which I'm pretty freaked out by) are still possibilities?

Thanks so much both

Quarantine methods are a balance of efficacy versus “cost”. In the method you linked, the “cost “(in time) is less, but it obviously is not as effective.

No quarantine at all works in some cases and has no cost effort at all.

The method that I developed is what I used as a public aquarium curator. It is more stringent than the method you linked, but also more effective. I’ve had other public aquarium curators have the opinion that my method isn’t comprehensive enough (grin).

Jay