Better system design

[Dogeatbird]

When it comes to gas management:

In the introduction of CO2 for calcium Reactors.

Or O3(ozone).

I have mentioned in other post about gas management.

I try not to use abbreviations as the discussion forum is multinational.

Use of a thermoelectric chiller in a calcium reactor can increase solublity of CO2; thus reducing the gas demand to maintain a desired reactor pH.

Also a similar effect can be achieved by introducing ozone into a recirculating reactor chamber; before discharging the effluent into the skimmer.

Lastly in regards to UV sterilizer;
A manifold on the input side:
Consisting of two ball valves link to two actuators can provide dual function. Parasite and algae/bacterial, as the actuators switch between the different valves; thus providing variable flow through the UV unit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Use of a thermoelectric chiller in a calcium reactor can increase solublity of CO2; thus reducing the gas demand to maintain a desired reactor pH.

How does that make sense? Sure, lowering temperature increases solubility, but why would that mean you can lower the pH the same amount with less gas?

I think such reactors usually dissolve all of the gas added.

 

[TokenReefer]

Lastly in regards to UV sterilizer;
A manifold on the input side:
Consisting of two ball valves link to two actuators can provide dual function. Parasite and algae/bacterial, as the actuators switch between the different valves; thus providing variable flow through the UV unit.

If the desire is to target both and algae can be targeted using a higher flow rate but parasites require a lower flow (longer uv exposure time) rate don't you just set it to the lower requirement ? Longer dwell time will be (more) affective on algae as well.

 

[BeanAnimal]

If the desire is to target both and algae can be targeted using a higher flow rate but parasites require a lower flow (longer uv exposure time) rate don't you just set it to the lower requirement ? Longer dwell time will be (more) affective on algae as well.

To that end, what controls the actuators? Would a simple variable speed pump provide the same variable flow with less mechanics, points of failure and overall logic?

 

[Dogeatbird]

How does that make sense? Sure, lowering temperature increases solubility, but why would that mean you can lower the pH the same amount with less gas?

I think such reactors usually dissolve all of the gas added.

If the desire is to target both and algae can be targeted using a higher flow rate but parasites require a lower flow (longer uv exposure time) rate don't you just set it to the lower requirement ? Longer dwell time will be (more) affective on algae as well.

I never said anything about the amount of gas needed to lower pH. What I am saying is that the solubility of CO2 is affected by temperature. Thus the amount of carbonic acid increases with the amount of CO2 dissolved and maintained dissolved, until the acid is utilized for the disassociation of the calcium carbonate media.

And no not all the CO2 is utilized otherwise a gas pocket would not form at the top off the reactor.

Bottom line is CO2 dissolves more readily at lower temperature.

Ozone will react until it is either dissipated into atmosphere or disassociated into O2.

Variable flow actuated manifolds provides both flow rates, although not concurrently.

Allowed for a higher UV dose when desired and lower dose for bacterial/algae when desired.

Again it is rude and disrespectful to merely say that serves no purpose, when also unwilling to explore and consider all potential outcomes.

 

[Dogeatbird]

To that end, what controls the actuators? Would a simple variable speed pump provide the same variable flow with less mechanics, points of failure and overall logic?

Depending on type. Timer/controller.

Available in both AC/DC voltage.

Check out US Solid. PVC actuators.

Available as normally open or closed. That means when power is off return to closed or open status, can be converted between the two position if you order the wrong type. (Open or closed)

 

[Dogeatbird]

Lastly a pvc actuator also can be a back up check valve.

A normally closed, when provided power is open. Loss of power closes valve.

 

[KrisReef]

Might work in a cold water tank?

 

[Dogeatbird]

Yes, a v1-10 controllable pump can also vary output. How many are on the market and in production.

Also you can just have two Uv systems.

Yes, it is another joint in the plumbing, which could fail.

But if you are not willing to dedicate a single pump, variable(DC) or AC.

Actuators provide a solution/work around.

 

[Dogeatbird]

Might work in a cold water tank?

Thermoelectric chiller is not regulating entire system volume.

Meerly the localized volume of the reactor.

The actual effect and efficiency of
the thermoelectric chiller is dictated by the effluent discharge rate. Amount of water that enters and then exits the reactor/time period.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Again it is rude and disrespectful to merely say that serves no purpose, when also unwilling to explore and consider all potential outcomes.

Depending on type. Timer/controller.

Available in both AC/DC voltage.

Check out US Solid. PVC actuators.

Available as normally open or closed. That means when power is off return to closed or open status, can be converted between the two position if you order the wrong type. (Open or closed)

Nobody has been rude or dispretful to you.

Three points, two you ignored and one new:
1 - oscillating between flows is pointless. Increased dwell time covers everything that less dwell time does. So if parasite targeting is the goal then low flow covers the algae as well.

2 - if for some odd reason you desire both options, then a single manual valve covers both, unless this is inline with a return, but you mention actuated ball valves, They are on or off which defeats that purpose without a complex setup. I said a DC speed controlled pump would be far easier to implement, but still question to what end? Who said anything exclusively regarding 0-10v?

This hobby is full of variable speed centrifugal pumps with numerous control methods. You proposed actuated valves that need a control signal or circuit, and those that can do stepped opening need 0-10v or pulsed control.

3 - A ball valve has many uses. A spring return NC valve could certainly act as a check valve in any system, but that has nothing to do with the UV directly. Adding it is a benefit of your “better” system design is a stretch. It can still fail or become easily blocked or fouled. The spring return is not powered or strong. I use the US solid actuated valves (stainless version) on my outdoor water spigots. I used an actuated Hayward multi-port pool before I had an Ocean Motions.

Seeing the above responses, it certainly would appear that you are interested in arguing with people for the sake of argument and paraphrasing search results or AI feedback to do so. Too many non-sequitur responses to believe otherwise. You may take that as rude, but it is my observation. This is a fruitless conversation.

 

[Dogeatbird]

Nobody has been rude or dispretful to you.

Three points, two you ignored and one new:
1 - oscillating between flows is pointless. Increased dwell time covers everything that less dwell time does. So if parasite targeting is the goal then low flow covers the algae as well.

2 - if for some odd reason you desire both options, then a single manual valve covers both, unless this is inline with a return, but you mention actuated ball valves, They are on or off which defeats that purpose without a complex setup. I said a DC speed controlled pump would be far easier to implement, but still question to what end? Who said anything exclusively regarding 0-10v?

This hobby is full of variable speed centrifugal pumps with numerous control methods. You proposed actuated valves that need a control signal or circuit, and those that can do stepped opening need 0-10v or pulsed control.

3 - A ball valve has many uses. A spring return NC valve could certainly act as a check valve in any system, but that has nothing to do with the UV directly. Adding it is a benefit of your “better” system design is a stretch. It can still fail or become easily blocked or fouled. The spring return is not powered or strong. I use the US solid actuated valves (stainless version) on my outdoor water spigots. I used an actuated Hayward multi-port pool before I had an Ocean Motions.

Seeing the above responses, it certainly would appear that you are interested in arguing with people for the sake of argument and paraphrasing search results or AI feedback to do so. Too many non-sequitur responses to believe otherwise. You may take that as rude, but it is my observation. This is a fruitless conversation.

1: Actuated valves do not use a spring return.

Rather a capacitor that discharges with loss of power/ signal.

2: variable speed pumps still require setup manipulation to adjust output flow.

3:algae/ bacterial reproduction rates at higher frequencies(shorter time periods), then parasites.

4:control of actuator can be as simple as a timer/ switch on/off.

5:volume of water to be passed through a UV system, usually is the determining factor for the wattage of the UV bulb/housing. Thus determining pass over value of a system per unit time.

6; the actual amount of sterilization/irradiation is a complex function.

UV watt size, housing diameter, distance between quartz sleeve/housing, and flow rate.

 

[Dogeatbird]

My background and career was in Industrial Engineering.

My chief responsibility was in solution and repeatedly achieved outcomes.

No AI, and addressing potential problems and solutions through the discussion and argument of potential technologies.

A setting on a pump, whether through variable voltage; or restricting outflow mechanically, also does not address loss of efficiency due to pump fouling/ or exact reposition of valve.

The only way is to actively measure outflow, via a hall sensor.

CO2 saturation is a function of temperature. Solubility also decreases with temperature.

Although a greater amount can be held in colder water, atmospheric loss also increases with temperature.

Open a cold seltzer vs a warm seltzer which goes ‘flat’ first?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I never said anything about the amount of gas needed to lower pH. What I am saying is that the solubility of CO2 is affected by temperature. Thus the amount of carbonic acid increases with the amount of CO2 dissolved and maintained dissolved, until the acid is utilized for the disassociation of the calcium carbonate media.

And no not all the CO2 is utilized otherwise a gas pocket would not form at the top off the reactor.

Bottom line is CO2 dissolves more readily at lower temperature.

Ozone will react until it is either dissipated into atmosphere or disassociated into O2.

Variable flow actuated manifolds provides both flow rates, although not concurrently.

Allowed for a higher UV dose when desired and lower dose for bacterial/algae when desired.

Again it is rude and disrespectful to merely say that serves no purpose, when also unwilling to explore and consider all potential outcomes.

Your explanation conflates several different concepts. Carbonic acid isn't simply "used up" by dissolving the media. We are not pouring acid into the tank to be consumed. It is an equilibrium reaction. The gas pocket doesn't prove CO2 is being wasted. Don't we already basically run reactors close to equilibrium? How would chilling help exactly?

If not all CO2 is consumed (your gas pocket) that actually indicates that CO2 availability may not be the limiting factor, and pH likely is, right? So how does colder water help? We lower flow to give CO2 more time to dissolve and be consumed, right? Remember that and let's move on and just concentrate on temperature.

What is the effort worth? Let's say 10% as a target increase in solubility, is that fair?

Tank temp 78 F. Tank capacity 150 G.

If we look at Henry's law, for 10% more solubility, we need a delta T of ~5 to 7 F.

If the reactor flow is 150 GPH and holds 1 gallon of water (let's assume the media is at steady state) can you tell me how large of a peltier is needed?

Second question, can you tell me the system temperature drop due to the cold effluent?

I will save you the math. If we ignore a complex integration and just use a first order estimate, you need over 2 kW of cooling for that delta T. Real peltier electrical will be far higher than that with any meaningful delta T over the plate. Not even remotely realistic either way.

But back to the solution to a problem that isn't. How do we get that delta T without needing 2+ kW of cooling? We lower the flow, right? That reduces the cooling requirement, but magically it also gives the CO2 more contact time. But wait, then why do we need the chiller in the first place then if we just lower the flow?

Also, how do we prevent the tank temperature from plummeting? Do we use the hot side of the peltier to warm the water back up? Does this mean we need a temperature controller and bypass? More complexity to what benefit?

Okay, let's back up and say we can get a 2 degree delta T in the reactor. That may be attainable, but to what end? ~2% more solubility? We consume maybe 1 kW in real peltier power. Why when just lowering the flow slightly would achieve the same basic outcome?

Why engineer complexity and cost and failure points into a system for no and call it “better” when there does not appear to be a real world benefit?

 

[BeanAnimal]

1: Actuated valves do not use a spring return.

Rather a capacitor that discharges with loss of power/ signal.

2: variable speed pumps still require setup manipulation to adjust output flow.

3:algae/ bacterial reproduction rates at higher frequencies(shorter time periods), then parasites.

4:control of actuator can be as simple as a timer/ switch on/off.

5:volume of water to be passed through a UV system, usually is the determining factor for the wattage of the UV bulb/housing. Thus determining pass over value of a system per unit time.

6; the actual amount of sterilization/irradiation is a complex function.

UV watt size, housing diameter, distance between quartz sleeve/housing, and flow rate.

You are not answering the responses you are presenting a moving target by restating and reframing.

1 - The return type is not relevant to the primary points that were made, be it sprung or capacitive discharge. The "benefit" of a check valve has nothing to do with the UV point. Capacitor return is still not the same as constant current powered return, it is weaker and more prone to fouling, partial close due to pressure, etc. You ignored the points being made.

2 and 4 - The valves you listed are fully open or closed. To achieve "high" and "low" flow you would need complex plumbing, be it different sizes, downstream throttling valves, or complex bypass loops, etc. Variable position valves are extremely expensive and require more complex control. Why any or all of this complexity for no real benefit, especially when a simple variable speed DC pump achieves the actual variable UV flow if desired (even if it is not needed)? In any case, your response undermines your own point by highlighting mine.

3 and 5 - the production rate has nothing to do with the flow. The dwell/intensity curve is targeted at cellular DNA damage. A higher dwell target will always kill anything that is a lower dwell target. The "density" or "reproduction rate" of organisms passing through is not relevant, their exposure time is. They are either rendered sterile or not. The only real argument for less dwell time would be sparing larger organisms like copepods, but copepods and parasites have comparable UV tolerance. There is no dose window that kills parasites and spares copepods. So, spare the copepods and you spare the ich too. There is no benefit to oscillating between high and low flow, no matter how you restate it. The logic doesn't hold.

6 - That is materially irrelevant. You proposed needing two different flow rates, that is the non-starter. Saying real world kill rates is a complex equation does not validate the need for two flow rates.

A setting on a pump, whether through variable voltage; or restricting outflow mechanically, also does not address loss of efficiency due to pump fouling/ or exact reposition of valve.

The only way is to actively measure outflow, via a hall sensor.

CO2 saturation is a function of temperature. Solubility also decreases with temperature.

Although a greater amount can be held in colder water, atmospheric loss also increases with temperature.

Open a cold seltzer vs a warm seltzer which goes ‘flat’ first?

Pump fouling is a straw man. Valves foul, stick and fail too, arguably at a higher rate than pumps in a marine system. Why does a pump need active flow measurement and a system with actuated valves not?

Many integrated reef controller and pump ecosystems already monitor pump state. How is rolling a complex valve actuation setup easier, more reliable, or of any benefit?

You introduced loss of efficiency now, it was not part of any earlier point or response. The system with valves still needs a pump. Controlled or not, what about its loss of efficiency? Your argument is circular here.

Restating that cold water holds more CO2 isn't an answer to a question that anybody asked or a fact that has been disputed. It is a sidestep of Randy's questions and the other responses regarding why a "chilled" calcium reactor is not "better design"

 

[Dogeatbird]

First what reactor is 150 gallons. And what effluent rate is 150 gph.

 

[Dogeatbird]

Would Beananimal read the first post. Where it states 2 ball valves linked to 2 actuators.

Lastly I doubt that, this staff member bothers to clean/decalcify the valves on his/her system.

Recheck the outflow of a sterilizer after any adjustment or maintenance cycle.

Edit :to remove assumptions about gender.

Just another R2R staff dismissal.

It is why I do not enjoy this site!

 

[Dogeatbird]

Calcium reactor, localized water volume reaches saturation at the local temperature of the reactor. Any CO2 in the system accumulates at the lid until new water is added via the feed pump.

If X volume of reactor water holds Y amount of gas. If one lowers the temperature of reactor. Amount of gas dissolved to achieve reactor pH influenced also can be reduced.

The feed pump allows both water in, as well as enriched water out.

Thus a chilled reactor holds water at a higher saturation, while incoming water is not enfused. The deviation of measured pH is two fold. Incoming feed water, disassociation of carbonic acid, by reaction with calcium carbonate; as well as natural breakdown into CO2 and water.

Modern calcium reactor peg the pH, adding co2 only when in deviation from set point.

 

[BeanAnimal]

First what reactor is 150 gallons. And what effluent rate is 150 gph.

I said:
Tank temp 78 F. Tank capacity 150 G.
reactor flow is 150 GPH and holds 1 gallon of water
Those are typical real parameters.

The math, logic, and overall point hold for any reasonable real world tank, reactor and throughput rate.

Would Beananimal read the first post. Where it states 2 ball valves linked to 2 actuators.

Lastly I doubt that, this staff member bothers to clean/decalcify the valves on his system.

Recheck the outflow of a sterilizer after any adjustment or maintenance cycle.

Just another R2R staff dismissal.

It is why I do not enjoy this site!

What are you talking about? My responses directly address your posts, including twice addressing your proposed 2 ball valves linked to two actuators.

Check the UV outflow for what? How is that relevant to any point made here?

You have not addressed a single response from anybody, you just keep restating things and moving goalposts. One straw man after the next.

I am not staff and my maintenance habits have absolutely nothing to do with anything discussed here.

Calcium reactor, localized water volume reaches saturation at the local temperature of the reactor. Any CO2 in the system accumulates at the lid until new water is added via the feed pump.

If X volume of reactor water holds Y amount of gas. If one lowers the temperature of reactor. Amount of gas dissolved to achieve reactor pH influenced also can be reduced.

The feed pump allows both water in, as well as enriched water out.

Thus a chilled reactor holds water at a higher saturation, while incoming water is not enfused. The deviation of measured pH is two fold. Incoming feed water, disassociation of carbonic acid, by reaction with calcium carbonate; as well as natural breakdown into CO2 and water.

Modern calcium reactor peg the pH, adding co2 only when in deviation from set point.

You just restated and pedantically reworded the same thing again, ignoring every point made and the questions asked. Adding needless detail about how a reactor works and that colder water holds more CO2, neither of which are in dispute or address the context of the pushback.

 

[Dogeatbird]

Moving goal post, Straw Men?

Measure outflow rate.

Maintenance of equipment and plumbing.