Bicolor blenny ich or velvet?

[Salty87]

Just set up a 15 gal qt backed up by a 5 gal tank housing saltwater converted mollies.
Started qt yesterday for a couple percula clowns, a Firefish goby and a bicolor blenny. First day treatment was only general cure, dosed directly to the qt. Plan was to observe for a week and then start on CP. Ammonia control is by regular checks with test kit, ammo lock and 25% wc every 3 days. Ammonia alert is on order and yet to reach me. All fish were feeding well with the blenny picking at stuff near his Pvc hidey hole.

Noticed a bit of flashing from the blenny today morning and that got my attention, so I pulled the trigger and dosed CP as well at the 15mg/ltr dosage. Don't know why but now the blenny is out of his Pvc and up on the powerhead, got his stress markings but no laboured breathing. Now I 've noticed his body and fins are covered by salt granule sized dots. Definitely not part of his stress colouration. My thinking is it is ich... Had experience with a blue tang with velvet before but its been so long I'm not sure. So is it ich or velvet folks? And any advice on if I should do anything differently? Thanks in advance.

 

[Cali Reef Life]

The copper dose is important Id say ich but hard to tell from a photo look at his behavior.

Here is a great article of the difference and what to do. https://aquariumstoredepot.com/blogs/news/marine-velvet

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I agree that this is ich. Velvet would cause rapid breathing, even in the absence of spots.

I always start off with copper and then dose with GC or Prazipro afterwards. Ich tends to sneak up pretty fast.

Jay

 

[Salty87]

The copper dose is important Id say ich but hard to tell from a photo look at his behavior.

Here is a great article of the difference and what to do. https://aquariumstoredepot.com/blogs/news/marine-velvet

My bad... By CP I meant chloroquine phosphate... I'm following the humblefish protocol 1

 

[Salty87]

I agree that this is ich. Velvet would cause rapid breathing, even in the absence of spots.

I always start off with copper and then dose with GC or Prazipro afterwards. Ich tends to sneak up pretty fast.

Jay

Thanks for the replies... I don't have copper on hand and also don't have copper test kits atm. I have dosed with chloroquine phosphate which is easily accessible for me. Would this be fine? I did not want to mix meds and hence dosed General cure first but then things took a turn for the worst very fast by ich showing up. If I maintain chloroquine at therapeutic levels for 21 days would that be a feasible plan?

 

[Cali Reef Life]

I have no idea only done it with copper never tired it. I have successfully treated it with copper several times. Humble fish did this article on it seems harder to do then copper but there are many ways to treat something.

Chloroquine Phosphate

Chloroquine Phosphate (updated 9-06-2023) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum), Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum. Please Note: Chloroquine is unlikely to eliminate internal (or intracellular) Uronema. How To Buy...

humble.fish

 

[Salty87]

I have no idea only done it with copper never tired it. I have successfully treated it with copper several times. Humble fish did this article on it seems harder to do then copper but there are many ways to treat something.

Chloroquine Phosphate

Chloroquine Phosphate (updated 9-06-2023) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum), Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum. Please Note: Chloroquine is unlikely to eliminate internal (or intracellular) Uronema. How To Buy...

humble.fish

Thanks, yes I'm following the humblefish protocol 1... I have treated with chloroquine before but that was a decade ago, so kind of nervous getting back into the hobby and straightaway into treating sick fish.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for the replies... I don't have copper on hand and also don't have copper test kits atm. I have dosed with chloroquine phosphate which is easily accessible for me. Would this be fine? I did not want to mix meds and hence dosed General cure first but then things took a turn for the worst very fast by ich showing up. If I maintain chloroquine at therapeutic levels for 21 days would that be a feasible plan?

You can use CP dosed at 15 mg/L (60 mg/gal) into a bare bottom QYT setting and it Must be at therapuetic level constant (cant fall below)

 

[Cali Reef Life]

Thanks, yes I'm following the humblefish protocol 1... I have treated with chloroquine before but that was a decade ago, so kind of nervous getting back into the hobby and straightaway into treating sick fish.

At least you were wise enough to QT. It's a bummer but there is a reason to QT. Watch your Ammonia levels as well I always order a Seachem Ammonia Alert Accessory for my QT.

 

[Salty87]

At least you were wise enough to QT. It's a bummer but there is a reason to QT. Watch your Ammonia levels as well I always order a Seachem Ammonia Alert Accessory for my QT.

Yes... Ammonia is what I'm worried about. Dosing ammo lock every 24 hrs... Ammonia alert is getting shipped to me so I'm going blind. Other fish seem to be doing perfectly fine though.

 

[Salty87]

You can use CP dosed at 15 mg/L (60 mg/gal) into a bare bottom QYT setting and it Must be at therapuetic level constant (cant fall below)

That is the exact same dose I'm at right now. Bare bottom qt with Pvc and a powerhead is all I'm running with.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the replies... I don't have copper on hand and also don't have copper test kits atm. I have dosed with chloroquine phosphate which is easily accessible for me. Would this be fine? I did not want to mix meds and hence dosed General cure first but then things took a turn for the worst very fast by ich showing up. If I maintain chloroquine at therapeutic levels for 21 days would that be a feasible plan?

I did a lot of work on chloroquine a decade ago, but then I started seeing toxicity issues in some species - lionfish and wrasse. I found I would need to dose upwards of 20 mg/l for active infections and some fish can't tolerate that. Here is a link to my article on chloroquine:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

Jay

 

[Salty87]

I did a lot of work on chloroquine a decade ago, but then I started seeing toxicity issues in some species - lionfish and wrasse. I found I would need to dose upwards of 20 mg/l for active infections and some fish can't tolerate that. Here is a link to my article on chloroquine:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

Jay

Thanks Jay. I learnt about treating with chloroquine about a decade ago, so same time frame. It is interesting to know that chloroquine is toxic in some fish. I did do some reading up before I even set up this small system and found a page on ultimate reefs where the good folk of the UK have a list of fish that went through chloroquine successfully and some that didn't. They found most anthias, wrasse and the hepatus tangs didn't live after a few days of chloroquine. In fact, my personal hepatus tang died in qt out of all the fish I put through Chloroquine those years back.
I am yet to go through your article, but my question is, do you feel all fish find chloroquine toxic or is it only certain varieties that are particularly intolerant. There was something said about even the intolerant ones being able to get through chloroquine if slowly ramped up but my memory is hazy. I really appreciate the response and I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity. If copper is the most reliable way to go I ll probably adopt that route the next go around QTing... Now time to dig in to the article you sent me.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay. I learnt about treating with chloroquine about a decade ago, so same time frame. It is interesting to know that chloroquine is toxic in some fish. I did do some reading up before I even set up this small system and found a page on ultimate reefs where the good folk of the UK have a list of fish that went through chloroquine successfully and some that didn't. They found most anthias, wrasse and the hepatus tangs didn't live after a few days of chloroquine. In fact, my personal hepatus tang died in qt out of all the fish I put through Chloroquine those years back.
I am yet to go through your article, but my question is, do you feel all fish find chloroquine toxic or is it only certain varieties that are particularly intolerant. There was something said about even the intolerant ones being able to get through chloroquine if slowly ramped up but my memory is hazy. I really appreciate the response and I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity. If copper is the most reliable way to go I ll probably adopt that route the next go around QTing... Now time to dig in to the article you sent me.

Ramping up chloroquine slowly is a bad idea. You need to get to a full dose right away. Chloroquine was always thought to be stable - indeed, I can measure it with a spectrophotometer, and it does seem to be. However, a study released by the Shedd Aquarium last year shows that chloroquine is degraded by bacteria to a form that still shows up on the tests, but does not seem to be effective at treating disease. If you ramp up slowly, you may just be feeding partial doses to the bacteria!

Jay

 

[Salty87]

Ramping up chloroquine slowly is a bad idea. You need to get to a full dose right away. Chloroquine was always thought to be stable - indeed, I can measure it with a spectrophotometer, and it does seem to be. However, a study released by the Shedd Aquarium last year shows that chloroquine is degraded by bacteria to a form that still shows up on the tests, but does not seem to be effective at treating disease. If you ramp up slowly, you may just be feeding partial doses to the bacteria!

Jay

Understood. I was led to believe that chloroquine is inherently unstable actually. Easily degraded by light, particularly UV, and as you mentioned also broken down partially by bacteria and the biological filter. Among all the resources I ve come across you are the only one mentioning measuring with a spectrophotometer which is refreshing for a compound that's otherwise untestable although still unreliable as to the therapeutically available compound. The ramping up part was anecdotal in the few specimens that were said to be intolerant if I remember right. Guess I will be moving on to copper to qt from now on. Dealing with the bacterial bloom from chloroquine which I suspect is from the phosphate component or mixing with general cure right now and it is disconcerting.

On a positive note, the bicolor blenny seems to be much more alert and active with fewer ich on him and is actually feeding. Hope the free swimming ich are killed and don't re-infect, fingers crossed.

Thanks for taking the time to engage me in this discussion. Really appreciate it.
Dr. Blesson

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I should have clarified, you need a UV spectrophotometer to measure chloroquine.

Jay

 

[Salty87]

I should have clarified, you need a UV spectrophotometer to measure chloroquine.

Jay

Ah... Noted. Thanks again

Dr. Blesson

 

[Salty87]

This is what I get for converting a molly and trusting it to be the proverbial "canary in the coal mine"

 

[Salty87]

Well almost nearing the end of two weeks in chloroquine... Bicolor blenny did a U turn from being sick to clearing his ich spots and going after the firefish. He's absolutely demolished the poor thing. To add insult to injury the clowns join in on the attack sometimes as well. Got the firefish in an acclimation box and praying he gets better. The blenny is so mad he's trying to attack through the acrylic! All this drama in a QT tank!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well almost nearing the end of two weeks in chloroquine... Bicolor blenny did a U turn from being sick to clearing his ich spots and going after the firefish. He's absolutely demolished the poor thing. To add insult to injury the clowns join in on the attack sometimes as well. Got the firefish in an acclimation box and praying he gets better. The blenny is so mad he's trying to attack through the acrylic! All this drama in a QT tank!

Watch for secondary infection in the firefish if it got its fins tore up.

Jay