Biodiversity - Beating the Ugly Stage

[Blue Cheese]

I think the issue is with defining diversity. If we are refering to microbes (protists, coralline algaes, etc.), yes all of these (albeit no coralline algae with fish) will bring those in. If we are talking about zooplankton, yes coral can bring this but dipping corals is recommended.

Ocean rock has protists, zooplankton, bacteria, archaea worms, good algaes, and often crabs, urchins, cucumbers, mantis shrimps, and possibly vermatids, bubble algae, etc. This comes back to the idea of how much control do you want over what enters your tank. The best solution imo is what aquabiomics offers with their sand and rock but they have been out every time I have checked. Maybe @AquaBiomics can chime in on if they might get some back in soon.

I didn’t have many pests with the rock but it’s why I left it in a bin for 76 days so I could remove them and not put them in to a tank,it worked for me,the tank is too big to be chasing pests or diseased fish,I’m extra careful to introducing

 

[Indiana Jones]

also watched that video and was very surprised that there is a kind of copepod that eats dinos, I always thought that no living creature eats them. Does anyone know exactly the name of the species of copepods that eats dinos Although to be honest, I still strongly doubt their existence.

Im not sure what species of copepods exactly, but I definitely want some.

 

[Blue Cheese]

Im not sure what species of copepods exactly, but I definitely want some.

I used the eco pods from algae barn,I made them a “hotel” in the sump extensions of redsea 900 and fed 3ml of Phyto every day

 

[ninjamyst]

All these people getting dino because we been told to go slow. Now we have first time hobbyists waiting months to add anything to their tank. IMO, stop keeping sterile tanks for months. Add a few easy frags. Jumpstart your biodiversity. You know what comes on frags? Bacteria and stuff from matured tanks. Obviously don't add $1k worth of acros and torches the first week. But slowly add a frag of zoas or mushrooms every week or so.

 

[Dipper Pines]

Im not sure what species of copepods exactly, but I definitely want some.

I am sure that the one who can find such a species (if it exists) and most importantly successfully cultivate it, will become a very rich person

 

[gbru316]

I actually did watch this. My understanding is copepods can be very effective, and that introducing that right biodiversity is important with something like AF Life Source. I could be wrong, but I thought Microbacter7 is similar for the biodiversity? This speech was good timing for me, because i havent turned my lights on yet.

Microbacter7 is more equivalent to AF's Pro Bio S.

Life Source is considerably different.

 

[Dipper Pines]

All these people getting dino because we been told to go slow. Now we have first time hobbyists waiting months to add anything to their tank. IMO, stop keeping sterile tanks for months. Add a few easy frags. Jumpstart your biodiversity. You know what comes on frags? Bacteria and stuff from matured tanks. Obviously don't add $1k worth of acros and torches the first week. But slowly add a frag of zoas or mushrooms every week or so.

Absolutely agree! But main problem that we do not know which exactly species of copepods bacterias or archaeas can beat or eat dinos.

 

[Indiana Jones]

Copepodes such as Acartia tonsa, eat diatoms and dinoflagellates predominately. - Mark Shelly

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d... paralyze or kill animals, including copepods.

Found this

 

[Lasse]

@Lasse has a protocol. He wrote an article about starting a new aquarium. Besides Lasse’s approach, I think the hobby is still struggling to understand and control nuisance microorganism growth.

I have stayed out from this thread because of this is not new findings. With the exception of "dark conditioning" of living rocks - my 15 steps is constructed in order to handling these issues and avoid all "ugly stage" According to use a dark period in order to kill all photosynthesizing organism - I´m strongly against that as well. These organisms is a part of the biome too. However - I will not start the light before a CUC is established. I do not either "dip" any corals with whatever. Instead I try to have a diverse fish population eating organism that can be a pest if they are allowed to form a strong monoculture.

But I´m glad that the realization that we work with artificial ecosystems is gaining ground. Even a small correction can give a big difference in terms of end result. On example -

If we assume that 10 hermit crabs and 10 snails can eat up to 1 g of microalgae per day, that aquarium will never have a larger algae growth as long as the algae do not grow by more than 1 gram per day. If this CUC is inserted at a time when the growth is below 1 g - then it works well. But if the same amount of CUC is used when production exceeds 1 gram per day - algae problems. My general advice is to always insert CUC before any visible algae can be observed.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

I have stayed out from this thread because of this is not new findings. With the exception of "dark conditioning" of living rocks - my 15 steps is constructed in order to handling these issues and avoid all "ugly stage" According to use a dark period in order to kill all photosynthesizing organism - I´m strongly against that as well. These organisms is a part of the biome too. However - I will not start the light before a CUC is established. I do not either "dip" any corals with whatever. Instead I try to have a diverse fish population eating organism that can be a pest if they are allowed to form a strong monoculture.

But I´m glad that the realization that we work with artificial ecosystems is gaining ground. Even a small correction can give a big difference in terms of end result. On example -

If we assume that 10 hermit crabs and 10 snails can eat up to 1 g of microalgae per day, that aquarium will never have a larger algae growth as long as the algae do not grow by more than 1 gram per day. If this CUC is inserted at a time when the growth is below 1 g - then it works well. But if the same amount of CUC is used when production exceeds 1 gram per day - algae problems. My general advice is to always insert CUC before any visible algae can be observed.

Sincerely Lasse

I like the analysis in the last paragraph.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I have stayed out from this thread because of this is not new findings. With the exception of "dark conditioning" of living rocks - my 15 steps is constructed in order to handling these issues and avoid all "ugly stage" According to use a dark period in order to kill all photosynthesizing organism - I´m strongly against that as well. These organisms is a part of the biome too. However - I will not start the light before a CUC is established. I do not either "dip" any corals with whatever. Instead I try to have a diverse fish population eating organism that can be a pest if they are allowed to form a strong monoculture.

But I´m glad that the realization that we work with artificial ecosystems is gaining ground. Even a small correction can give a big difference in terms of end result. On example -

If we assume that 10 hermit crabs and 10 snails can eat up to 1 g of microalgae per day, that aquarium will never have a larger algae growth as long as the algae do not grow by more than 1 gram per day. If this CUC is inserted at a time when the growth is below 1 g - then it works well. But if the same amount of CUC is used when production exceeds 1 gram per day - algae problems. My general advice is to always insert CUC before any visible algae can be observed.

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you. The 15 steps was a good read. I noticed that you would turn the lights on pretty early in the process. What’s your thoughts on the lights off approach for 4 months?

 

[Tired]

I know I'm not who you asked, but the only way you're going to get done with the ugly stage is to have your rocks covered in beneficial algae. It can't grow with no light. If you start with live rock, all that the darkness will do is kill off your beneficial photosynthetic critters.

The ugly stage really is nothing to worry about. It looks bad, but it doesn't hurt anything. Just keep it off any corals, and it's fine.

 

[AydenLincoln]

Ryan @ BRS performed a series of experiments regarding biome cycling, summed up at a presentation he gave at Reefapalooza NY.

Give this a watch (it's also available as a podcast):

How 15 Answers Changed the Way I Look at My Tank Forever! 10 Months of Biome Cycling 12 Aquariums

In this live presentation at Reefapalooza New York 2022, Ryan shares the results and draws some insightful conclusions from our 10-month investigation of the reef aquarium biome.

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Was just going to comment on this. Alternatively you could wait to add corals/do a very long dark out period.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I know I'm not who you asked, but the only way you're going to get done with the ugly stage is to have your rocks covered in beneficial algae. It can't grow with no light. If you start with live rock, all that the darkness will do is kill off your beneficial photosynthetic critters.

The ugly stage really is nothing to worry about. It looks bad, but it doesn't hurt anything. Just keep it off any corals, and it's fine.

I appreciate it. I guess I better get a CUC and turn the lights on sooner than later.

 

[Tired]

That's a good plan. Try to look at the ugly stage as something interesting, to watch how it progresses, rather than as something bad to be gotten rid of.

Cyano is neat. When it first evolved, a good two billion or so years ago, there was no oxygen in Earth's atmosphere. Everything that lived used anaerobic respiration, and oxygen was toxic to them. But then cyano appeared, and started exhaling oxygen. Over hundreds of thousands of years, the cyano filled our atmosphere with oxygen, allowing life as we know it today and wiping out almost everything that had come before it. Take a good look at the cyano when it shows up: that's likely your great-great-great-great-[many more greats]-great ancestor.

 

[Lasse]

The question

Thank you. The 15 steps was a good read. I noticed that you would turn the lights on pretty early in the process. What’s your thoughts on the lights off approach for 4 months?

The answer

I know I'm not who you asked, but the only way you're going to get done with the ugly stage is to have your rocks covered in beneficial algae. It can't grow with no light. If you start with live rock, all that the darkness will do is kill off your beneficial photosynthetic critters.

The ugly stage really is nothing to worry about. It looks bad, but it doesn't hurt anything. Just keep it off any corals, and it's fine.

IMO - the "dark" period will kill will kill both beneficial and nuisance organisms. Its a general method. Its better for me that I know that I have beneficial organisms with and fight the nuisance ones when they show up.

A important question nearly not mentioned in the video is the nutrients levels

In order to favour the good photosynthetic organism - the need both micro and macro nutrients are important. Different organisms have different demands of concentrations in the water. especially when it comes to N, P and C. The "good" ones is mostly in need of inorganic nutrients - some of the nuisance (read mostly dinoflagellates) can switch to organic nutrients if the inorganic getting too low. Some nuisance organism have developed a fantastic ability to use very low concentrations of inorganic P (read PO4 and diatoms) - some have developed a fantastic ability to convert N2 gas into NH3/NH4 in different ways (read cyanobacteria) Some organisms have developed a ability to move down in the substrate in order to collect frisläppt PO4 (read dinoflagellates and some cyanobacteria). Some need more trace compounds compared with other photosynthetic organism. Iron has been mentioned as positive for some nuisance organism and iodine as positive for some good ones (green algae). If its this way is uncertain because all photosynthetic organisms needs both - but it can be that way that the concentrations of these (and other trace and semi trace elements) is critical. The classic example - in reef "science" - in order to starving an unwanted organism to death is diatoms and silicate. Diatoms need silica in a high amount in order to build their internal skeleton. The idea is to use RO water free of silica - RODI water. But - the ugly truth is that the moment you stop in a coral rock or coral sand - your water is no longer free of silica. The use of ICP tests has revealed that the normal silicon level in our functioning aquarium is around 100 - 300 µg / L. IMO - the thinking is right here but the result in reality will show that it is a rather unnecessary thing to try to zeroing Si concentrations unless the silicon levels in the tap water are very high - at least if your aim is to limit the living space for diatoms.

What I´m trying to say is that its important that some inorganic N and P is present in the start in one or another way.

In our reefs - with alkalinity of around 7 in dKH - inorganic C is always present in one or another form

P is of huge interest here (read dissolved PO4).

In the old days - we use living rocks that have been taken out of the ocean. Most of us that did not "cure" them get in some smaller amount of PO4 into our water at day 1. Concentrations high enough to create new life. This PO4 was not only bound in organics (the "the living" things in the rocks) - it was also bound in a chemical way (calcium phosphate) in the rocks. This chemical bound phosphate serve as a warehouse for phosphate in the water column (according to the current equilibrium constant between bound and dissolved PO4) - if it is to low in the water column it release PO4 - if it is to high in the water column - it it binds more PO4. The living rocks not only serve as a PO4 producer from decaying organisms - the rocks in themselves also functioned as a PO4 source.

However - nowadays we use mostly (and thank you for that) dry rocks mined from ancient coral reefs on dry land. It seems that many of these rocks had lost its calcium phosphate during the millennia they have been untouched and leached by rainwater, among other things, These rocks seems not act as a warehouse for PO4 when putted into our aquariums - on the contrary, they will act as a magnet for dissolved phosphate until they become in the equilibrium with the contents of the water column. With other words - your rocks will serve as a giant GFO filter in the beginning.

Hence - I will address the the problem with more "uglies" (read diatoms, cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates) in the start process when using dry mined rocks not only to low biodiversity - but also to lack of inorganic dissolved N and P in the start (read NO3 and PO4)

Now to the dip question. Should we dip our corals? I do not. Why?

Our corals are not only the animal and the zooxanthellae (the algae within the anima) It is also a huge amount of bacteria and microorganisms living in slime of the corals. There is even some theories that some corals (mostly soft and some LPS) farm bacteria in the slime as food. The slime of our corals serve as an agar plate for microorganisms and - very important - the biome can be different between different corals. If we put in a coral from the wild - its full of microorganism that is beneficial for it and they are already established at this special life space. It will serve as a refugium for beneficial bacteria i our aquarium. You not only put in a coral in your aquarium - you also put in a whole micro ecosystem in your aquarium - both microorganisms and self-sufficiency living space. The same when we ad frags from well established and functional aquariums.

And what are we recommended to do - dip the coral in order to get rid of possible bad organisms. We will also lose all of these beneficial microorganisms in the slime and present an unused agar plate for other already established microbiome in the actual aquarium. Adding this coral was our chance to put in a refugium of natural microorganisms into our aquarium - but we missed that because fear of introduce a bad guy - that we don't even know if it exist or not.

I have never dipped any new coral - but if I get a outbreak of something bad - I maybe dip my existing corals if all other options are tested¨and failed.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jay'sReefBugs]

Arcatia Copepods eat dinoflagellates and in my experience some others do as well . It also really depends on how bad your outbreak is . They can only eat so much and if it's regenerating faster then they can eat it then it's kinda mute point type deal . Best to fix the main issue then have copepods clean up the stragglers