Bolus dosing

[MnFish1]

One thing nobody seems to have mentioned is for me what if you have one fail with your dosing pumps
I guess dosing by hand is something that not a lot of people can do because of work… I wouldn’t be able (and willing) to do it by hand
So if you only dose once a day and one day there is a problem and you miss your whole day’s consumption I would say it’s game over…
Tank is on knife’s edge

There are calculators that explain how to bolus dose alkalinity and calcium - and they have been used long before everyone and their brother had dosing pumps

 

[TokenReefer]

That's the pH, which apparently isn't stable using this system. I'm concerned with KH stability, I have only had problems when KH has swung ( in my own tank, not using bolus or fauna marin balling )

Sorry guess I'm not following. I see spikes everywhere; if we're talkin spikes

I'll just go back to watching this thread lol. Interesting schtuff

 

[MnFish1]

Can anyone explain in detail (experimental or even just theory) the data rationale suggesting timing is important?

Isn't it saying to dose in the AM - near the time the lights go on - since photosynthesis will also act to boost the pH? Thats the only logic I got out of it - and it has nothing to do with daily dosing.

 

[ackshee]

Reef tanks get that same pH swing for the same reason as the ocean rising during photosynthesis) no matter what they do.

Fair enough! I was just wondering if that's the idea behind this Bolus method.

 

[MnFish1]

this is exactly what FM claims is happening.
point 1

FM claims dosing would first drop your PH slightly after that it starts to rais again
also this is exactly what i am seeing!!

first a smal drop in PH there after a slow rais boosted by the extra light

The question I guess would be - what happens to the pH when the light goes on - but nothing is dosed. I'm not saying there is no need to dose, just that it doesn't seem like it's the product thats doing anything magical, but rather the light. If you dosed the alk at 10PM, what would the difference be

 

[Ziggy17]

Before dosing pumps existed and people worked all day, didn’t most dose that way in the morning? At best maybe a second dose in the evening?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Didn't we all

Before dosing pumps existed and people worked all day, didn’t most dose that way in the morning? At best maybe a second dose in the evening?

Almost posted the exact same thing yesterday....

I used to use a simple graduated cup and dump every day... (okay a lie... when I remembered every few days)
I think that is what we all did before dosing pumps.

Used Randy's chart for sanity

and Jdieck's calculator to do the math

 

[Pod_01]

BRS had a video years ago talking about dosing - and they were just dumping it into the tank. I don't think there is anything 'new' about this 'method' - and as of yet - haven't seen any clear benefits.

My understanding is that this is what was done prior to the use of dosing pumps. Claude and Doug said as much in the videos I watched and in their opinion corals respond/grow better.

They speculated that the Alk stability (flat line) was started when dosing pumps became a thing. Honestly I am not sure what Alk stability is (I seen my go up and down all the time…..) as I don’t really know what old tank syndrome is (have not seen it).

I have no proof one way or other but Doug from Frag Farm did state that his farm is using the Bolus method.

Bolus method clarifies when is the best time to dose based on FM and Frag Farm observation (2 years of observations).

 

[BeanAnimal]

My understanding is that this is what was done prior to the use of dosing pumps. Claude and Doug said as much in the videos I watched and in their opinion corals respond/grow better.

They speculated that the Alk stability (flat line) was started when dosing pumps became a thing. Honestly I am not sure what Alk stability is (I seen my go up and down all the time…..) as I don’t really know what old tank syndrome is (have not seen it).

I have no proof one way or other but Doug from Frag Farm did state that his farm is using the Bolus method.

Bolus method clarifies when is the best time to dose based on FM and Frag Farm observation (2 years of observations).

That is fine but I think the conversation has two sets of people mostly talking past each other.

One group simply wants to know how fantastical claims about "fixing buffer systems" and "preventing old tank syndrome" or whatever else has been said (I refuse to watch the video) have any basis in reality.

A second group who appears to be willing to suspend scientific disbelief (or has no intention of even considering facts) in favor of "well I am doing it and my corals are happy" or even "I see better results" so therefore "the claims must be true" or "I don't care what the claims are, this method works for me".

 

[Ziggy17]

My understanding is that this is what was done prior to the use of dosing pumps. Claude and Doug said as much in the videos I watched and in their opinion corals respond/grow better.

They speculated that the Alk stability (flat line) was started when dosing pumps became a thing. Honestly I am not sure what Alk stability is (I seen my go up and down all the time…..) as I don’t really know what old tank syndrome is (have not seen it).

I have no proof one way or other but Doug from Frag Farm did state that his farm is using the Bolus method.

Bolus method clarifies when is the best time to dose based on FM and Frag Farm observation (2 years of observations).

When old school becomes the new school.

 

[MnFish1]

Didn't we all

Almost posted the exact same thing yesterday....

I used to use a simple graduated cup and dump every day... (okay a lie... when I remembered every few days)
I think that is what we all did before dosing pumps.

Used Randy's chart for sanity

and Jdieck's calculator to do the math

Exactly

 

[areefer01]

That is fine but I think the conversation has two sets of people mostly talking past each other.

One group simply wants to know how fantastical claims about "fixing buffer systems" and "preventing old tank syndrome" or whatever else has been said (I refuse to watch the video) have any basis in reality.

A second group who appears to be willing to suspend scientific disbelief (or has no intention of even considering facts) in favor of "well I am doing it and my corals are happy" or even "I see better results" so therefore "the claims must be true" or "I don't care what the claims are, this method works for me".

The part in bold is what frustrates me the most today. It seems that some can't get past what works for others. We are hell bent in knocking or disputing or disproving whatever success they have or talk about be it method, software, or hardware.

I fully understand that knowing what is inside the box is important but I also am of the opinion which is who cares.

 

[Big E]

Did you read the post from Florian?

A lot of people using simple methods in multiple countries do not use this system and other methods work 'fine' as well. BRS had a video years ago talking about dosing - and they were just dumping it into the tank. I don't think there is anything 'new' about this 'method' - and as of yet - haven't seen any clear benefits.

Before dosing pumps existed and people worked all day, didn’t most dose that way in the morning? At best maybe a second dose in the evening?

I hand (bolus) dosed for a good 8 years with Randy's 2 part. I would dose in the morning when my lights came on. My lights were also all on/all off for a full 8 hours. I never have thought much of it and now it's some "new" idea............lol.

The alk stability montra is all from being able to test constantly. It's a theory that no one has proven to matter either.
I eventually bought a doser cause it made things easier, not for stability. I honestly could care less if my alk is stable hour to hour.

I test my alk once a week.

This whole thing is much ado about nothing.

The claims of what the system does on improving colors, health, ect. are nonsense to me. All unstubtantiated claims with no data, facts or even before/ after pictures.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The part in bold is what frustrates me the most today. It seems that some can't get past what works for others. We are hell bent in knocking or disputing or disproving whatever success they have or talk about be it method, software, or hardware.

I fully understand that knowing what is inside the box is important but I also am of the opinion which is who cares.

Collective knowledge and advancement (in any area of information) come from the act of removing bad data, in this context misconception or misinformation.

The further context is that there is a vast difference between lack of information and misinformation.

 

[elysics]

The part in bold is what frustrates me the most today. It seems that some can't get past what works for others. We are hell bent in knocking or disputing or disproving whatever success they have or talk about be it method, software, or hardware.

I fully understand that knowing what is inside the box is important but I also am of the opinion which is who cares.

The problem with this common sense approach is that it is often wrong.

If you say "XYZ works for me" and repeat it often enough with enough people, it will in practice turn into "XYZ works" if these attacks and scepticism and disputing isn't there. And then the edge cases come in and someone's tank doesn't do well or crashes because of people thinking who cares what the truth is. Or less harsh, people cling to a worse/needlessly expensive or involved/ whatever system when there could have been progress long ago towards everyone having better understanding and better tanks.

That's the core of science, always assuming that whatever someone believes in is wrong and looking for proof otherwise

 

[ReneReef]

Are you taking about Core 7. Did they change it.?

It was:

19,500 dKH or 6,964meq/L (Both 3A & 3B)
9,750 dKH or 3,482meq/L (3A only)
9,750 dKH or 3,482meq/L (3B only)

Ah yes, thats correct, I was confused. Sorry.
Been a while since I used Triton.

 

[BeanAnimal]

This is of course good for us users, but there is also a lot of copying. And it's probably not all that complicated.

Correct - and being honest, most the of "secrecy" is about making customers feel like they are getting the benefit of a superior product, as well as preventing them from shopping comparables or replacements.

Look at Triton - they do their best to not really even say what part is Alk, Ca or Mag let alone tell you concentrations. Their wording calculators instructions are designed to obfuscate the details in favor of holding you captive to their system.

"Which bottle is the shampoo and which the conditioner?"

"Well we suggest using Bottle 1A followed by bottle 1B and if your hair needs more sheen then an application of bottle 1C will help."

"Great, but which is the conditioner"

"Tell is how your hair feels and we will tell you what bottle to use, all of our products work together to condition like no other product."

It is (at best) frustrating.

 

[ReneReef]

Yes, very interesting to dump the entire daily Alk demand in one dose, spike the system, and then ramp the light to 100% in 10 minutes. Super creative!

Difficult here to distinguish between sarcasm and close mindedness...

The idea to set up pH and alk in the morning for corals can take as much advantage as possible during the light hours seems like something worth pursuing for a coral farm.
An aquarium is not the ocean. So why not experiment how and how far we can bend the system to improve coral growth. Especially for a coral farm that has a different goal than the average hobbyist, namely production and revenue.

We have long fin anemone fish now...
But yes let's stick to mimicking the ocean every other possible way, because nature.

Can't help to assume now, that you forage and hunt for all your food, because farming is too creative.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The idea to set up pH and alk in the morning for corals can take as much advantage as possible during the light hours seems like something worth pursuing for a coral farm.
An aquarium is not the ocean. So why not experiment how and how far we can bend the system to improve coral growth. Especially for a coral farm that has a different goal than the average hobbyist, namely production and revenue.

How is that different/better than just maintaining higher and stable alk, and higher pH?

If that is the simple goal, there are many ways to get there, some of which are well understood and widely used.

 

[ReneReef]

How is that different/better than just maintaining higher and stable alk, and higher pH?

If that is the simple goal, there are many ways to get there, some of which are well understood and widely used.

I don't know either. I'm as skeptical as you are.

Day and night time calcification are not the same, so why not explore if there is a optimal way/moment to push it for max results.
If someone can tell us there is no biological benefit to be gained, then the chemistry doesn't even matter.

We are seeing a lot of data we can't explain. So at the moment nobody knows. I think even FM doesn't really know (although they probably don't know they don't know), because of a total lack of controls and no standardisation of the experimental set-up.

I'm just keeping an open mind.
Do I think that it is most likely that the bolus method is not beneficial and might even be detrimental? Yes.